Ralph and Lauren welcome back Scott Desgrosseilliers, CEO of Wicked Reports, to dive into the biggest frustrations plaguing marketers today: accurate attribution. Scott unveils his brand-new “5 Forces” framework, a methodology born out of frustration, testing, and maybe a little time on the toilet—but designed to help marketers and entrepreneurs unlock hidden revenue from their existing data. You’ll learn why most attribution models fail, what metrics actually drive profits, and how to stop flying blind in your media buying decisions. If you’re running multi-million dollar ad spends or just looking to scale smarter, this episode delivers real-world strategies you can implement today.
Chapters:
- 00:00:00 – Kicking Off with Ralph, Lauren, and a Dash of Chaos
- 00:00:25 – Pandemic Flashbacks and Entrepreneurial Resilience
- 00:03:33 – Why Most Marketers Are Still Struggling with Attribution
- 00:05:05 – The Wild Origin Story of the Five Forces Framework
- 00:08:17 – Breaking Down the Five Forces That Will Transform Your Ad Game
- 00:24:04 – How Long Should You Wait to See Real Marketing Results?
- 00:28:35 – Lifecycle Marketing: Unlocking Hidden Growth in Your Funnel
- 00:28:59 – Setting Sales Benchmarks That Actually Mean Something
- 00:29:52 – What Most Marketers Forget to Factor In (That Could Kill ROAS)
- 00:31:56 – Decision Logs: The Secret Weapon for Smarter Ad Budgets
- 00:37:49 – Tweaking Traffic, Budget, and Creative for Maximum Impact
- 00:43:23 – Not All Customers Are Created Equal—Here’s Why That Matters
- 00:46:21 – Final Thoughts: Why the Five Forces Aren’t Just Theory
LINKS AND RESOURCES:
- Unlock Marketing Clarity with The 5 Forces System
- Tier 11 Data Suite
- 5 Forces AI
- Tier 11 Jobs
- Perpetual Traffic on YouTube
- Tiereleven.com
- Mongoose Media
- Perpetual Traffic Survey
- Perpetual Traffic Website
- Follow Perpetual Traffic on Twitter
- Connect with Lauren on Instagram and Connect with Ralph on LinkedIn
Thanks so much for joining us this week. Want to subscribe to Perpetual Traffic? Have some feedback you’d like to share? Connect with us on iTunes and leave us a review!
Mentioned in this episode:
READ THE TRANSCRIPT:
The Muddled Attribution Puzzle Solved: Scott Desgrosseilliers’ 5 Forces
Ralph: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic Podcast. This is your host, Ralph Burns, and the founder and CEO of Tier 11, alongside my amazing co-host,
Lauren: Lauren e Petillo, the founder of Mongoose Media.
Ralph: So glad you joined us here today. It feels like we have not done a show together in, I don’t know, like a year.
I’ve missed you, so I missed you too. And you’re not even home yet. You’re still like, you’re on this world tour. How long has it been since you’ve actually been back in Orlando? It’s like three months, right?
Lauren: Yes. I don’t, you know what, it’s all a blur.
It’s like you have pandemic. Years are a blur. H one of 2025 is a blur. Oh man.
Ralph: Tell me about it. That’s right. This past weekend was a blur to me ’cause it felt like 2020 all over again ’cause I caught frigging COVID. Can you believe that? Unbelievable. The only reason I knew it was COVID. ’cause Jen had stockpiled like [00:01:00] hundreds of these tests.
like for the next pandemic, did
Lauren: she save? So on? I stockpiled quite a few too, but I’m saving them for like in 30 years to sell them as like
Ralph: Pokemon cars. That’s true. Remember those pandemic era, right? All the COVID tests. Oh, we still, no, we still have all the, like the hand sanitizers, the masks.
She’s like, oh, I’ll get you a mask. Yeah.
Lauren: Oh. Oh. Don’t get me started. Hold on. I bought $10,000 worth of medical grade, individually wrapped face masks, gloves, and hand sanitizer. I had it when no one else did, and I was like, I’m ready. And I had a store on Google for an entire, like two days before they shut down, saying I was taking advantage of the pandemic.
I.
Ralph: Anyway, Jen’s out today. This is the stuff that people complain about, by the way, too much rapport building at the beginning of a show. So we’re, but
Lauren: I
Ralph: missed you. I know I missed you too. And you know
Lauren: you went to Italy. I know
Ralph: I did. And I came back and I caught COVID. I brought COVID with me. [00:02:00] So didn’t COVID in the US like come from Venice?
That’s like in the first time through. I think it did.
Lauren: Uh, I was in Italy at the advent of the pandemic, and I left in February. Afraid I wouldn’t be allowed entrance to the us and so I left in February and I arrived in the us. They didn’t even take my temperature. Meanwhile, back in Banya, near Milan, there was a hospital completely shut down ’cause of how bad the pandemic was.
Ralph: Enough with all that, people have already fast forwarded through the show.
Lauren: Well, you know what also is horrible. Ralph, you know, it’s horrible. The white people don’t know how to read data.
Ralph: So anyway, today Scott is, uh, back on perpetual traffic. Thanks for coming back here today and you’re gonna be regaling us with this new methodology that you invented.
I think you thought of this either while you were drunk high or in the shower. I’m not sure which it was. I thought for sure it was taking maybe a combination of all three or taking up a, taking a dump. You know what [00:03:00] ideas come in all those places when you’re dumping
Lauren: ideas and dumping gold,
Ralph: dumping ideas, dumping goals, thinking of stuff.
And I’m not gonna reveal what it is, but it’s a new framework for looking at data. And obviously there’s gonna be a pitch at the end pitch alert. ’cause he’s so, he is selling stuff, but he’s selling good stuff. So that’s why we bring ’em on the show. so tell us a little bit about it and why did we invite you back yet again to perpetual traffic?
Scott: Well, you know, marketing attribution is always a topic that. It has so much potential and so much frustration. People, you know, it, it’s all that potential in your data and how are you gonna mine and get there? And then with the ad platforms getting more and more black box measurement’s gonna become more critical because you’re, you’re really not gonna have, gonna have less control in the platforms.
You need measurement to know whether you should still see. Spend there. ’cause they’re getting better and better at claiming all the credit in the world. And although they’re very valuable to use, they want you to keep spending [00:04:00] infinity if you could. And so I was, you know, I was always trying to, I’ve been doing this forever.
I’ve been trying to predict. Using data to predict things since I was literally 13, 40 years ago, 53 now, and I’ve been doing marketing attribution on and off 14 years. And so I got to the point where I was like, we don’t need another fricking report. I was like, how? And so AI came along last year, you know, I started thinking, oh, it’s gonna be great.
We’ll just throw up the spreadsheet, tell it some stuff, and it’s gonna magically give the answer. And that led me on an odyssey that took about 10, 11 months to build out and battle test this system that I’ve been kind of consulting with people for a couple years on, but then really refined it so it could run on auto autopilot.
And then realized I kept, as I was sharing with people, they’re like, you know, you really got something here. You should train people on this and share. Share. So I thought I would do that and that’s why I’m here.
Ralph: all right. So five
Scott: [00:05:00] forces. Is what it’s called. the genesis of it was what attribution model should I use?
Everyone asks that every time they’re using wicker reports, every time they’re talking to me at events. You know, every time the topic goes well, which attribution model should I use? And then it’s like, well, how long should I measure it for? Which trends should I use? Should I not use trends? What, columns matter, what data points matter?
And I was like, I could create a whole way of doing it. Wiki reports already technically did all that, but I was like, I go, yeah, we’ve always already done that. But then it takes time and how do you save time and actually make attribution valuable? And a time saver. And then combine that with potential benefits of AI if it has the right training.
’cause we’ll get into that. AI is, it’s like a preschooler running am muck it. That’s not really great with like staying on the rails with, particularly with attribution ’cause it’s a complicated field. So I got into that and I realized that, you know, okay, rubber meets the road, how am I going to, with a minimal amount of [00:06:00] effort from the end user, get them to get the value of attribution.
So that’s why I set up. Across set about the system and came across there was five key points, and therefore the system’s called the five forces that are the ones that provide the biggest impact and create a force multiplier in your marketing if applied. Right.
Ralph: So the biggest problem that I see with people with attribution softwares, especially like Wicked Reports or any of the others, won’t even mention who they are, is where to look and what to look at.
Scott: Hmm,
Ralph: and just make sense of all of this, like in the interface, like Wicked Reports has changed dramatically. A buddy of ours texted me the other day. He’s like, since when did Wicked Reports get good? Like. Ever since Tara Evans started giving them advice. Of course. But it’s true. But anyway, so like you can go into Google Analytics you don’t know where to look.
So what I like about this framework is that it does, it takes you down that path [00:07:00] of do this first, second, third, fourth, fifth sex. Yes. Like you keep going. But it’s a framework in which to. Interpret what is a very confusing subject here. Like attribution mm-hmm. Is confusing and there’s so many different factors to it.
As you know, having done this for God knows how many years now, But this framework allows you to be able to make sense of it all, which was the thing that I really liked about it, which, you know, which is the reason why we didn’t charge you to come on today’s show because you thought this was actually more valuable.
Really? Yeah. Really? Yeah. So
Speakers 1: it’s like
Ralph: you charge for shows now anyway, so if you’re not watching this on over on our YouTube channel, I would highly recommend that you do so after you listen to the audio or obviously over@perpetualtraffic.com slash YouTube.
Make sure that you subscribe. And I think when you go over there, you don’t have a choice anyway. You have to subscribe when you go on that link.
Lauren: Well, that’s because that’s a hacker garlic.
Ralph: Yeah, that was an iron [00:08:00] garlic thing.
so let’s get into it. Like I said, if you are not on our YouTube channel, definitely check that this out over at, uh, perpetual traffic.com/youtube. So take it away.
Scott: So the vision behind the five forces, solving the customer acquisition puzzle with data process and decision science, that was what I set out to do I mean, we’ve all been on product demos where people just wanna show off all the features and you’re like, yeah, just solve my pain point. And that’s what we’re trying to do with all this data. We can show you, oh, look at all these cool data points, but like, who cares?
I just wanna solve my problem.
Ralph: So what I found that was most beneficial and a system that was repeatable and that would help get the attribution easy button, was these five forces.
Scott: First is the intention. Every campaign should have an intention. What are you trying to do? then you should have an ex that helps us, as for measurement and for optimization. Narrow down all the [00:09:00] different things you can focus on, which is important because we’re all busy marketers. But also it helps the measurement know which data points to include.
Which trends matter, which attribution model to set, and that’s important. And so that alone solves a lot, and we’ll get into the specifics behind that shortly. Let me just run through the five fours here. Then the second is expectations, because when you hear like you guys are agency owners, you’ve had this.
About a hundred times you start a top of the funnel campaign and then three days in the client’s like, I don’t see any sales, or they’re in Google Analytics and they’re like, it doesn’t look like Facebook’s making a lot of money. Well, with the expectations you set up, how long you’re gonna wait. Based on what you’re based on, the intention you set, how long you should let the campaign run, where you’re gonna go to measure it, and what you’re gonna go measure.
So the expectations are set up before the campaign’s even launched so that you’re all on the same page and you have it. Logged so that [00:10:00] when inevitably the person with the budget freaks out and goes against what they said, you at least have it. you’ve already said, Hey, we’re following this process, and by the way, this is what we agreed to.
And then they may still blow it up, but at least you tried. Right. So then actions is, you know, actions is twofold. One is just taking the action of launching the campaign based on the attention and expectation. But then when you’ve run through the whole five forces and you’ve got to the optimizations and you have a list of things you might end up improving or options, you have to weigh them.
And then the action is to select which optimization you’re gonna use to improve the campaign. Outcomes is the act of the measurement. And then you take that measurement and compare it against the scale chill or kill zone. This is one I know Ralph likes. I do. So the scale trade priority trademarked it on me scale.
So the idea with scale chill kill is that. If you just set a single number as a goal, like I wanna acquire new customers at $50, [00:11:00] then whenever you take a measurement or an outcome, it’s always either above or below that number, and then you have to do some thinking, oh, it’s above. Oh wait, how long has it been above that number now?
Is that bad? Oh, do I have to go dig into the campaign now? Or do I have to go look at my who I’m targeting? Do I have to go look at the creatives? ’cause now it’s a couple dollars above $50. Oh, no wait. I think I can go to 60 until it’s a problem. There’s all these things that occur when you have a single number or if it’s below and you hit like 45.
That’s. Great ’cause it’s below your target of 50. But then if you get down to 35, like, wow, I’m doing really good, does that mean you should spend more or not? So the idea with a scale chill and kill zone is you set up the zones. So ahead of time. I used to be a financial trader and you wanted to not react emotionally.
As the stock trades, the price has change. you wanna have it set up so that. You are making changes methodically, and so you set up a zone or a range of values, [00:12:00] so you already know how you’re gonna act based on when your key metric comes in. When you measure it as an outcome based on the intention that you set.
And then optimizations is pretty clear from the name it’s optimizations, but based on the intention you set and based on the outcome that occurs, how close or far you are, what zone you’re in, there are different actions to take to optimize. And there are different, like past performance in the account to look at, such as if you’re doing retargeting, you don’t want to be looking at all your ads.
You should only look at the ads that you did retargeting in the past for, for the specific channel you’re in. To determine the benchmarks, you have to determine how well you’re doing and to determine what you might wanna optimize. It’s not in a very high level as the five forces. I’ll stop there for any.
Questions you might have.
Ralph: Okay. So for those of you who are listening are not watching, but I mean we’re just sort of going through a presentation here is like, this is a way of not getting lost in the data and not changing [00:13:00] sort of the fields, not changing the goalposts. Like how to sort of stick with a plan and move forward on it and using a framework, because we all know that everyone gets lost in data.
And this is like a, this is a training that we’re gonna be taking the Tier 11 team through because it is this way. Like does it give you all the answers? No. But it allows you to stay the course and be in an organized way, how you think about data. Because you can get lost in the data and change the outcome, or change the expectations, which we see all the time.
All the time. All the, all the, all the time. Geez. And then I love the zones on the outcomes, and then obviously the optimizations are where, you know, a lot of the stuff that we talk about in the show, how to actually do that. So maybe let’s go through each one of these maybe in a little bit of a deeper way, unless you have Something specific.
Scott: No. So first, there’s a whole blueprint. This is the beginning of [00:14:00] it. And so if you were launching a campaign, these are the three things we’re first gonna fill out, which is what’s the intention of the campaign? What’s the best KPI for that intention. It doesn’t mean we won’t look at multiple indicators, but you need a North Star because otherwise you get in there and you’re like, oh, the Roaz is here.
The CCUs here. Oh, the end cactus here. Oh, the bounce rate is up on the people clicking to the site. Oh, the AOV is down or up. Right. How many people are taking the upsell? There’s so many ways that you can just waste time, and so you gotta just stick to the north star, and then you look at the other stuff when you got time.
And so here are the, intentions.
Ralph: What’s your, what’s what’s your goal and what’s the most important metric that you’re exactly focus on? Like your big goal is like your business goal. Okay. It’s double the business, go from 5 million to 10 million in, you know, three years or whatever it is. But the way in which to do that is to acquire more customers, for example, at a cost of X.
That makes sense. And we’ve done plenty of shows here about NAC and how to determine that. We’ll leave links in the show notes for that. But [00:15:00] it’s like deciding on like one metric as your North star is so vitally important and it’s gonna vary by. You know, individual business, it’s not always nac. in a lot of cases it is, but as long as you focus on that thing, you don’t get.
Distracted by all the noise that’s in there. Like exactly what you’re saying, and this is like one of our media buyers is like, I remember when we first started doing this, we had a couple of media buyers that weren’t really that good. This is like 10 years ago. I’m like, Hey, what? What are you doing today?
What’d you do today? It’s like optimizations. I’m like, well, what are you doing optimizations? I’m like, what’s the goal of the client? Well, I’m optimizing. Like, what are you optimizing? I mean, we still, now, it’s a lot different, but the point is, is like you get distracted. Like you’re all here, there and everywhere.
But there usually is one key metric and when we call it an MPI, you call it a KPI here, whatever it is, that’s your North Star.
Scott: And so this is at a specific campaign you would select between one of these intentions, you just select one of them, and [00:16:00] based on that is the primary KPI, which we’re then gonna set the zone for, which I’ll get to shortly, and then everything flows from there.
But it starts with focus on what am I trying to do with this campaign? Because ideally you have different campaigns with different goals. I mean, everyone knows to say, you know, this audience is pretty advanced. Everyone knows you’re gonna have retargeting. Of course you’re gonna have things when you’re just trying to get people to buy right away.
But I mean, if you’re doing cold traffic prospecting, you know, first click attributed ROAS is the North Star for that type of campaign. And then acquire new customers, obviously NAC and then Profit LAD spend roas. So that’s where it starts. What am I trying to do? Okay, here’s my North Star for that campaign.
Hmm. Next, you mentioned nac. We’re gonna set what’s called zone scale Chill kill zones. Let me go here. First scale, increase the budget if that KPI, if you’re in the scale zone. Kill is decrease, chill, [00:17:00] chills, underrated. It means you keep the, you keep spending the same amount of money. if the KPI is in that zone also for you as a busy marketer, it means you can chill out and move on to the next thing.
’cause you know, this one’s going fine. You may wanna optimize it, and make it go better. But you know, it’s good enough for now if you have like 30 other things to do. And I think that’s important. And then
Ralph: I like that concept the best out of all of these. there’s a lot of things that I like about this, but just that alone, it’s like everyone has, and I think I started thinking differently about this because we’ve done so many shows on nac, and NAC is a good example here.
It’s like an NAC is a number, when in fact it should be a range.
Lauren: Hmm.
Ralph: Really? And if you’re shooting for a $50 inac and you’re getting a 30. Scale that sucker. But if your goal is a 50 and you’re at 50, that’s probably not a scale zone. That’s probably more of a chill zone. But then if it goes to 60 or 70, now you’re in trouble.
But having a range in there, maybe it’s [00:18:00] 45 to 55, is like your chill zone, but your scale zone is 45 to 30 or below, you know, is scale. So. Like, I just love that idea and with the trader background that you have, it totally makes a whole lot of sense. I think it’s a new way of thinking about this and we have a lot of agencies that listen to the show.
I. It’s like they’re always held to like one number. You should actually be sort of in this zone. We talked about this with our head of traffic and like we’ve opted this since, you know, since you talking about this. So that’s one. Know,
Lauren: we have a rule that we try to establish thumbs.
Every client is like, what is the KPI of which I don’t have to ask permission to scale. Because we’re always motivated to scale with permission and performance. That’s how we
Scott: get, that’s a good way to do it. And then that would be the border for your scale zone. Anything below. Yeah. And then what’s the one where you’re like nervous?
you want to cut the budget if it goes above that a hundred percent. Because we do
Lauren: that to do Des, like we’ll use rules a lot to make sure that we can have scale situations where if we. [00:19:00] Exceed thresholds. That’s what we’ll say, a range of thresholds. But I like that you have zones that makes it even clearer and I’m like, oh, I’m a hundred percent implementing this into our onboarding experience.
So ’cause we lock it in, like we need to make sure if your cac, your customer acquisition cost is $40 as a target. If I get it to you for $28, I can scale without permission. Right. Until. We hit, if it’s $40 target, we hit $61, then we start descaling back. Mm-hmm. But I’m gonna scale until 40 and then I’m gonna not descale until like, whatever the number is.
But like for, that’s our thresholds. And I’m like, this is so much more physically clear for the individuals. And having zones articulates your thresholds.
Scott: Yes.
Lauren: Really Well. So if you’re not watching, I recommend that you head over to YouTube ’cause it’s just. Visually sharing what I have been verbally saying for our clients for years.
And I’m like, oh man, this is just so much easier and so much clearer. Yes.
Scott: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That’s what you’re talking about right here. Yeah. The boundary to end of the scale [00:20:00] zone.
Lauren: Yeah.
Scott: So that was a good way to, to state it. And then like as a trader, you’re trying to determine your budget actions before all of a sudden you’ve launched it, then you see the number, and if you have just a single number, you then gonna have those convos.
And then people start poking around on all the other data and like it just costs you on the 20 minutes of your life. You just set it up ahead of time. Then it’s kind of more straightforward
Lauren: when you set up ahead of time. It allows you to spend your time on other things that can help you more strategically optimize the ad accounts
Ralph: to optimize the account.
I also do think this isn’t real understanding. You have to have an understanding of this as a business owner. Like if you’re heading up a marketing department and you’re listening to this and you don’t have these zones, like these have to come from finance, these have to come from like, alright, if 15 is our, like our scale, what is 20, what is 25?
You know what I mean? you have to be able to sort of say in different areas or what if we get a 10? Yeah. [00:21:00] You know, for our nac. So what are all those scenarios and what do I. You know, where do I tamp the brakes? Where do I press the gas? And understanding that from a profitability standpoint, which is, like I said, we’ll leave links in the show notes for all the shows we’ve done on nac.
’cause this is so important. And it’s, it’s usually a wide range. It’s depending on like, the risk tolerance of the business owner too.
Lauren: I would say yes to finance. But I’d also encourage you to bring in your operations lead, like especially talking to CPG brands. Uh, we’re recording right now. It’s June. July, black Fri like July is when we start Black Friday planning.
And it’s definitely when you start talking to your fulfillment teams, if you’re ordering product, especially if you’re doing gift with purchase, things of that, like that all has to be solidified by September at the latest. Yeah. And so in that, like so many companies plan what would happen if they fail, but they really plan what they do if they scale.
So if it’s like, you need to know what the profitable numbers are and you also need to know like, what does that impact? ’cause I can’t scale in perpetuity if you’re not gonna be able to have the inventory to supply.
Scott: Right. So
Lauren: [00:22:00] there’s just things of that communication that allows you to be a, better partner to your brand or client when you’re like, Hey, we wanna scale strategically.
We wanna scale based off of what finance can agree to. But we also wanna know at what capacity is the breaking point for fulfilling on the products.
Ralph: Right? we also have this thing that’s looming out there right now as of this recording. Like we don’t know for a lot of the e-commerce brands that we serve.
And all three of us do. It’s like what’s gonna be the impact of tariffs? Hmm. And that’s a cogs that I have to assume in most cases is going to be passed along to the consumer and or absorbed by the individual business. So that affects your nac that affects all of these numbers here. Mm-hmm. What are those gonna look like based upon different scenarios?
You should start thinking about those sorts of things now, or diversifying your supply chain. All of these things. Easier said than done. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Just shift all your manufacturing from China. Well,
Lauren: hold on. Nearshoring has pros and cons. We’ve had, we had a client that, and not, not the purpose of this conversation can get deeper into it later, of [00:23:00] course, but it is a very serious talk.
I mean, Mars, the third wishes family in the United States just changed their billion dollar media spend to a new agency. Like this is hitting a lot of individuals, and the companies and if they’re not able to pass. The cost difference and that to the consumer, they’re gonna take it into marketing.
So if you’re in marketing, that’s like the easiest example of a billion dollar media account being transferred over to a French agency. Sorry, that was my like, I can’t believe that happened. But of course, ’cause Mars isn’t passing their cost to the consumer, but they’re also the third, which is family in the US and can do that.
Not everyone can.
Ralph: Hmm. It’s true. Well, marketing at the end of the day is a line item on the p and l. That’s one of the first things that people do look at and scrutinize. Yeah. So anyway, back to our regularly scheduled program here. Yes. With our diversion off tariffs. Uh, let’s continue on the five forces.
Okay. We’ve got intention, we got our attention
Scott: set up, and we got our zone. We got our scale, chill, kill zone. Now we’re gonna get into expectations. So you guys [00:24:00] might have come across These pains here looking at Google acquisition reports at GA four, and it says, we are losing money on Facebook. That happened to a client of mine that was, I’ve never heard that.
It was showing they made 16 K in the month and they actually made about 130,000 on Facebook and Googling analytics was saying 16 K, and he was spending 30. So he’s spending a grand a day. He’s like, geez, should I, should I cut it? And I was like, no, no you shouldn’t. No. Or a Facebook ad manager, you know, not seeing top of the funnel due to its short attribution windows.
That’s always been the case, you know, and particularly with Advantage campaigns, we won’t deviate too much down that, rat hole. But they’re gonna be great at bottom of the funnel. , I research on it on the blog, but we don’t know about top of the funnel yet. There’s ways to maybe hack that. We’ll see.
or a dip over the weekend. And I think what time to cut the budget, these are client issues. These are expectation things. Expectation that the ROAS is gonna be good every [00:25:00] day expectation that Facebook ad manager was gonna report top of the funnel campaigns. Well, so if your intention is cold traffic, you don’t want people looking that you don’t want your.
Client or boss, if you’re the brand, basing it on Facebook ad manager necessarily, particularly when you first start it, because it may not report as well as you hope. And these are all lack of alignment or agreement around the measurement source of truth, what attribution model to use, the measurement timeframe, and then the KPI to look at.
So these are all things that five forces handles in the expectation phase, and we do that. By mapping, first of all, the specific intentions to the specific model. So we don’t need to go into all of these, but a common one, cold traffic prospecting, you should use first click because you’re trying to find cold traffic.
So you need to see what the first click was from the cold traffic. Now, if you are in looking at. [00:26:00] Google Analytics four, or if you’re in looking at, let’s say Google, ads manager reports, they don’t use first click. So they’re not gonna report fairly, they’re not gonna give the scoreboard. It’s like you’re the defensive coach and you’re coaching the basketball team, and you went in and saw how many points were scored in the game.
Oh, we scored 130 points. Well, that doesn’t tell you how good the defense did. It’s not the way to keep score the defense. You how many points were allowed. And that’s what happens is people have an intention, which therefore sets a score. It should have a scoreboard of first click, but then they look at systems that are using different scoreboards and therefore they get confused quickly.
Lauren: Fair. I like remember sitting next to someone on a baseball game once and they had their own private sheet and they were marking like where, what basis someone had made and was like, what scoreboard are you keeping track of? And I remember just like, oh, I’m out. Baseball has too much math.
Ralph: A lot of people do that, by the
Scott: way. [00:27:00] And then additionally, yeah, score. It’s called Keeping book. I mean people in at Fenway Park keep book a lot. Keep, I thought it was keeping score. don’t know. I thought I was keeping the book. I don’t know, maybe the main, you’re
Ralph: from Maine there. The only
Lauren: thing I kept scored was body count, so this baseball numbers, things was not, I was like, holy God counts.
Scott: Oh my God. And all right, so then also the intention sets the measurement period. And this is important that when you’re launching these campaigns. You communicate the measurement period right up front based on what they’re trying to accomplish.
Lauren: This is, this is so big because I mean. Like going into the Facebook ad rabbit hole a little bit.
Like you can change what you’re optimizing for and then your attribution window is what you’re getting credit in app. But then there’s a lot of times where this discussion and like we have clients that will have like moving goal posts, right? Where the expectations change, even though we have agreements, if we’re not looking at a specific measurement period, that’s fair.
Like [00:28:00] Facebook has that 28 day attribution window, attentive. Look, your default is 28 days for an SMS. That should be two hours, two days max. But if you should be a day, if don’t have a type of, I argue, two to four hours, I’ll give you two days max for SMS attribution, but attentive default is 28, and the only way you can reduce that default is by having an account manager going in on the backend.
I disagree with that completely, but the purpose of the matter is like if you don’t have agreement on what the measurement period is. You’re not gonna allow email to take the proper credit for that. That lifecycle marketing, it’s, it changes the scope and, math is manipulative. And this is where I’ve seen a lot of marketers when we go into accounts and we’ll do audits or we’re doing consulting, where this just gets completely blown out of proportion.
So I’m glad that this is set up in the intention style here.
Scott: Yeah. and additionally you might make these bigger even. ’cause when we first beta, when we beed this out, like some people would be like, wait a minute, I got a 90 day cycle ’cause I’m selling, you know, 10 grand HVAC
Ralph: to [00:29:00] install or whatever.
That was my point. It’s like, I think this is a good benchmark here, but it’s gonna vary based upon your business.
Scott: Correct. Yeah. I won’t get all in the whole advance. Piece where we get into when you wanna tweak it based on your customer cycle. A hundred percent. Yeah.
Ralph: A bit of a pitch for Wicked Reports on this in tier 11 data suite is that you can actually see what that first click to purchase typically is based on platform too.
So you’ll have an idea as to what it is. Yeah. So it might not be 30 days is what you’re saying here. It might be less, it might be more depending on what the, you know, the product is. Yeah. This is just a benchmark for start
Lauren: point price point. Is there like a sales funnel that’s involved into it? Like if it’s a high ticket item, you have to have that increasing.
Like we constantly hear about how webinars have nearly doubled the time it takes.
Ralph: Time is a factor. Like to, to your point, like it’s a factor that so many people forget about when it comes to this. Yes.
Scott: Yeah.
Ralph: it’s just so true. It’s like, well, you know, my campaign went to shit this weekend.
It’s like, well, okay. How long has your sales cycle off? Like [00:30:00] how long does it take? Yeah. For somebody like, you may get a lot of clickers on the weekends, but then they might buy next Wednesday once you, external
Lauren: factors to time, right? Oh, is it 4th of July? It’s Father’s Day weekend and like things that come into play, like was there an like Chacha Petit was down the other day.
So could that have those things that, there are always external factors, but time and budget are things to me at least, that most people neglect in understanding.
Ralph: And there’s weird stuff. There’s like, you know, when the California fires took place, like we have a lot of clients that are California, like California is a huge area for, purchasing for a lot of our clients.
So we saw a dip in performance in our ad account. That weekend of the LA fires, like, well, there’s weird stuff like that that happens all the time. But the point is, is like if you have sort of a north star, you understand sort of what your measurement period is. Yeah. Those kinds of things you can sort of take as like with a grain of salt,
Lauren: but exceptions not the rules as
Ralph: exceptions and not the rules.
Mm-hmm. But still there’s a lot of things that play into here and it’s not always inside the [00:31:00] platform either. ’cause remember the max inside meta is 28 days. After 28 days, you’re done really seven days.
Lauren: Well, technically you, can do further extensions and just to see it, but at the end of the day, your, your attribution that you’re optimizing for is gonna be seven.
But you have Yeah. the numbers will always change, but what I’m seeing here is it always comes back to intention, which is at the beginning of Scott’s force. Like, how are you going to push forward? Are you gonna force the best opportunity for you to do well? Set yourself up for success. Exactly.
Scott: Yes.
Lauren: Why? And what are you doing this for?
Scott: A hundred percent. Exactly. couldn’t have said that better. That was perfect, Lauren. So this is covers the expectations. Woo. And then I was gonna go, you get a cold star, Lauren Petillo. She does. And then when we come to action, let’s go to action now. Now with action, the key piece is what’s called the decision log.
I’ll show one already filled out. ’cause the idea is that you want to keep track of what you’ve decided to do [00:32:00] or not to do based on what the data’s telling you. ’cause sometimes the data will be screaming at you to do something, but there’d be a reason you don’t want to.
Lauren: For sure,
Scott: or vice versa
Lauren: on this. A but you have a contractual agreement with the affiliate that you’re gonna spend X amount of money on any ads that have their face in it.
Scott: Yeah. Or so then, or you’ve got a gut, sometimes you got a gut feel, sometimes you just wanna test something out, and so you wanna log when you make a decision. Because also going back to those times, if you made a decision and, cut the budget in half or doubled the budget, that resets the measurement time.
Now, it’s not always gonna go well in with people, but if you’ve suddenly doubled your budget because you were in the scale zone, the very next day, if you have like a two week sales cycle, the very next day, the numbers don’t look good for that one day. So you need to be on the same page within like, Hey, the measurement period for this intention is 14, let’s say 14 days.
And I just doubled the budget ’cause we’re killing it. So we have to wait another 14 days before we’re gonna. Knee jerk and [00:33:00] pull the budget back. We gotta let the ad platform, digest the additional spend and make sure it can find new customers at the same rate. And so you log the decision, and then you log when the next remeasure date is, so that you have that also as your evidence trail to prevent the client or the boss from, Ruining your best intentions. ’cause otherwise people will, yo-yo Oh, we scaled it. Oh no, it just tanked. Well, no, it’s only been three days. Uh, yeah. Your sales cycle’s 14. So you log these things with a remeasure day. You say, Hey, I’m scaling. Here’s what I’m gonna remeasure. the system wants to like, reinforce good behavior.
Ralph: Yeah. and hygiene and not, eliminating knee jerk reactions. Yes. Just
Lauren: shiny object syndrome is so real. It’s, and we’re reactive all the time, and it’s like, I saw this TikTok video that said, if I just launched this one campaign, or if I do this Taylor add campaign in Amazon and shut all of my working campaigns, it’ll automatically work.
You’re like, hold on, there’s a missing context. [00:34:00] Please reaction, please. Yes. Reaction.
Ralph: But this forces you well, the five forces
Scott: of not
Ralph: doing that.
Scott: Or you can log it and say, so and so had a great idea from TikTok. And then boy will they look embarrassed and maybe hopefully be quiet next time. Is
Lauren: there a way to like call it out the backlog and just be like, oh, okay.
I love you business owner. I love you.
Scott: Well, I think maybe when they see it in it’s clear and black and white, maybe that’ll hit home. Maybe it won’t. But
Lauren: I mean, for the most part, at least, like we have found that, that’s happening less and less, but definitely closer to the pandemic when everyone was working at home for the first time, when people were like, upskilling themselves.
I found a lot more people jumping in, want to help. the intention is always to be helpful, right? Mm-hmm. Like, they’re like, oh, I bet this can work. And, It’s without this type of a communication, having that notes allows people to see the bigger picture. And I think that’s so important. Like when, at least for us, we have an agency, so we have the client success manager, the strategist, project manager.
[00:35:00] There’s a lot of moving pieces plus the media buyers plus you know, the creative service department, that someone can make a decision without understanding the ramifications of everything else. And then if you log it, you can know and go back if it didn’t work. Or equally if it did work, you can give credit and you can amplify more of what’s working because you can find the source.
That allowed that change to scale you stronger.
Scott: Amen. Exactly. Absolutely. So moving on, I know we’re getting short on time here. So for outcome, that’s when we’re gonna take the measurement of once the measurement period is done, and put it on the scale chill, kill zone. Now we need entry criteria. We have to have set an intention, we have to have selected the zones.
We have to have agreed on the expectations and the measurement period has elapsed.
Lauren: If you’re not watching this, by the way, I’m just gonna go back to the people that are listening. Love you listening, but like, these are great slides and this, feels like I’m playing a video game. Like, congratulations, you unlocked this, you unlock this, unlock this.
Now you can get your secret star.
Scott: I was trying to [00:36:00] gamify it, so thank you. Gamified with like superheroes. So each intention has a different, like superhero superheroes. Yeah. This is a shero. So let’s say in this one, I’ve done the end. I go in and measure the NAC here on this one and it’s not good. Yeah. You know, it’s 183.
So I plot it and then we look. My scale, don my for costs, the KPI up. Obviously, the more you pay, the worse the kill zones at the top, and then roas, the kill zone be at the bottom. So 180 3 is dramatically into the kill zone. I. For this particular person. So for those of you just listening, this one, the, boundary between the chill and the kill zone is $70 and is 183 bucks for the nac.
So that’s too exceeds
Lauren: it. We
Scott: got a deal that that means. Okay. We have to go off. You’re off the reservation right now? Yeah, we gotta go optimize. We just got fired.
Lauren: You’re off the chart.
Scott: You’re probably in trouble. But you can at least go try some strategic optimization or something
Lauren: could have broken. Hold on.
That happens a lot. Something can break and where you’re like, oh my gosh. All of our plugins [00:37:00] didn’t get updated yesterday because of WordPress or someone cleared. Yeah. Pre they’ve, republished a past version that happened
Scott: yesterday. The, the capi Turns out the zap got turned off and the CAPI didn’t get Yeah, exactly.
Your Optin box by event matched disappears. Right. Event match quality crashed. Yeah. someone spent all the money on brand, some new been messed up a setting and we spent it all on brand. How dare they? All those things. So it’s not just, it could have been a number of things, or it could have been you were killing it and then you just tried to triple the ad spend and you fished out all the ad sets and they only were good enough when you were, had smaller budgets and you were spending more than what the ad set curve was.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Common actually very common. So then we go to optimization. There’s three areas that were looking at, uh, excuse me, five areas, traffic, budget allocation. Creative and offer product and customer quality, all the different metrics in those areas. we have different metrics and things we look at in these areas to either tell you, Hey, you got a traffic problem, or, it’s [00:38:00] the product you’re offering because it’s new customers and you’re offering a product that they don’t like.
Or it could be creative and offer, which could be a lot of things. Or the customer quality. It might be, well, yeah, you’re, bringing in volume, but the AOVs way down because no one’s taking the upsell. You’re getting way more cheap traffic. ’cause the people are. Cheaper when they go to checkout,
Lauren: pause and like, what’s the difference for you between trafficking and customer quality on this?
Scott: Sure the traffic would be the, for example, if you are trying to get new customers, but you’re not buying, getting enough new visits, so you’re, actually getting a lot of, volume repeat customers. Yeah. So you see a lot of repeat customers. You’re like, well, I’m buying, the traffic’s supposed to be for new customers, but I’m getting a turn to repeat something’s off.
Maybe Advantage plus audiences expanded and has turned into a retargeting campaign as often. Oh, so I thought I was buying new customers. Yeah. Right. So that would be a case of traffic. you wanted new you’re getting warm or you’re getting repeat. Yeah, a very common one.
Okay. And then customer [00:39:00] quality would be a lot around a OV or could be conversion rate. Conversion rate could also be creative and offer the offer’s not good enough. It’s not creating high, so
Lauren: they’re all intermingled in some way or shape or form because this is a marketing campaign. But just here are the five places of which, Ralph’s earlier muted buyer that’s optimizing is focusing on.
Ralph: Correct.
Scott: okay. Yeah. Yeah. So example, here’s traffic, but it’s giving you focus. ’cause it could be like, as a advanced media buyer, you say, Hey, I have a traffic issue. I got more repeat than new.
And then, you’ve got options. You can go deal with it. However you’re gonna deal with it. But if your intention was new, customers and your North Star’s nac, but you’re spending half your budget on repeat. Well, you gotta work twice as hard on the traffic that is coming in to get,
Lauren: yeah.
Scott: So it might not be like the campaigns that, ’cause then you’ll think, oh, I had all these great creative ideas.
I can’t believe they’re not working. I gotta think of new ones. No, you just were showing it to the wrong audience. It was all the people that have already seen that stuff and bought, and now they’re getting numb to it. So that’s why your North Star metric isn’t [00:40:00] working out of N CAC because it’s repeat people coming in.
So that’s how we try to like help support what you’re doing with data in that way. So there’s a couple others. I know we’re coming up on time here.
Next one would be budget allocation. Do I need to scale SHA or kill? Common things are top of funnel, cold traffic, budget being spent and retargeting. Or your meta campaign just optimizing and saying, this ad sets, you know, it makes decisions fast. This ad’s killing it, so it just spends, or is converting better and it spends all the money on one ad or one ad set.
, and so what happens there is then you might have had other great ideas that again, that AI decided not to use or metas algorithm may be ai, maybe, you know, just machine learning. so in that case, that’s a budget issue of, hey, this ad didn’t really get any budget. It might actually still work. You just need to, you know, try it on a different campaign.
Search campaigns, a lot of times we see that, you know, profitable keywords aren’t getting enough budget, even though they have more impression share available. That’s like you have a, [00:41:00] you have a burger restaurant and you have starving customers walking by, but you shut your door on every other customer.
You just. You put the clothes sign up and then the open sign up the next time it’d be like they’re starving and they want food and you have these warm burgers, hot off the grill. Or in your case, veggie burgers, Ralph Tasty veggie burgers, bean burger. Right? But the point being, these things can happen where when you give stuff up to the machine, the data can point out where the machines made a mistake ’cause they’re not foolproof.
And then there’s different ways to deal with that. you might just have to break out the things that are getting ignored and put them in their own campaigns, but you probably had a lot of good ideas in the ads or the ad sets, or you have some keywords that are actually already making money and they’re just not getting budget.
There’s ways to that. Then as a media buyer, you can go in and fix that. that’s what the five four is. Walks through that process of saying, oh, this thing should be scaling. Why isn’t it? Oh, look, Google’s AI has decided not to do it, so I gotta go fix it [00:42:00] myself.
Ralph: Right. Right. So these are all prompts to go in and obviously take action and optimize in essence, in each individual area. Like there’s a lot, some of these are combinations of all four or five together. They, yeah. As opposed to just one, but,
Scott: mm-hmm. Yeah. ’cause then you go through like these strategic checks here.
So then, creative an offer, I mean, a big one is conversion rate. Mm-hmm. Also bounce rate, click through rate. And then this, I like the segmentation of conversion rate between new verse. Returning I don’t think it gets enough, focus from people that
Lauren: for sure across all areas of marketing.
Like people just, treat everyone as equals where it’s, if someone’s returning. And are they returning ’cause they previously bought from you? Are they returning because they’ve never bought from you? There’s a different hierarchy. And who is the quality of that traffic? Like you said earlier, like the quality of your visitor, that’s huge and it drives different types of marketing.
Like the small thing for us, we know that [00:43:00] retargeting with statics right now is what’s working the best because we don’t have to pitch completely to new people. To returning people. They already saw the initial pitch. Yeah. So if you can have that type of offer and optimization in the creative, that’s how we have found it to be true.
but this goes into a layer deeper is what you’re saying.
Scott: Mm-hmm. And then the customer quality, a OV versus, what your benchmarks are, particularly again with new versus historical. New. And then ’cause repeat. AOVs and l obviously repeat LTV is higher ’cause they’re repeat customer. But, a OVI find.
Across the board is usually higher from a repeat customer. So, but if you’re not doing that in your benchmarking and you’re thinking, oh, my a OV is normally 200 bucks, so I just need to convert people at a hundred and I’m gonna make a hundred bucks. And then lo and behold, you’re only making 140 as your a OV.
Well, it could be. Then you go back, oh shoot. I was including all these like. Customers have had for 10 years. Well, you shouldn’t. You’ve gotta use new versus historical. So there’s a focus there on the [00:44:00] customer quality and digging into that because that can ransack a lot of otherwise good looking metrics.
Yeah. Like your AOVs down.
Ralph: Or it could be like, just marketing qualified leads versus sales qualified leads, like all of that. Yeah. I mean, people who don’t book calls, like we’re just talking e-commerce here, but I mean, from the info and digital world, like there’s other types of metrics when you’re talking about quality.
I. Yes. I mean, and that’s usually sales qualified lead versus marketing qualified lead. did they actually book a call? Did they, meet with the team and they say, okay, they are qualified. They have all the things that we need. They’ve got the net worth they’ve got whatever your criteria is.
Yeah. Like that’s a huge part to this as well, which is obviously gonna affect your bottom line.
Scott: And then product, product for new co. You know, often you might be leading with a, you know, you’re just throwing up a shopping campaign and they’re taking in your whole feed of 2000 products and trying to find the winner.
I know Andromeda says it’s always gonna be able to do that. We’ll see some cases it will, but. You probably have [00:45:00] historical data and you may be leading with one campaign. You one product you really hope to sell, but it turns out new customers don’t like that. It just has a lot of sales on repeat or vice versa.
And so segmenting the behavior of what your new, your best current customers did to make them first become customers in using that data. So there’s some focus there because the conversion rate, first of all, by product on new verse returning will be different. Along with the sku. A OV will obviously be different based on, you know, if you’re charging different amounts, but.
I just find that can be a symptom if you’re trying to optimize to go in and look at after segmenting numerous repeat. What skews have worked in the past on new on turning people from cold traffic to new is pretty informative. ’cause it could be that they’re just not getting shown the product that in your history has converted them best.
It’s been if you throw it up to the machine. And so then from a Advantage plus world focus. You just build a [00:46:00] campaign around that one product. ’cause then it’s easier. You just do the creative for that one product, the hooks around that one, and focus on all cold traffic there because that’s what’s worked best in the past.
That tends to repeat itself. Makes sense. And so that is kind of five forces. I have a whole blueprint that you would then follow around it
Ralph: So intention, expectation, action, outcome optimization, those are the right forces.
Lauren: Right? Well, and with the powers unite, we are captained.
Ralph: Yes. The slides themselves are kind of kinda ba that kind of a reason to get this thing you.
This one,
Scott: this one’s cool. You’re ripping off some robot’s head. Oh yeah. Is that Captain Wicked? Yes. No, that’s the, uh, optimization force, I think. Oh, optimization force. I see. Looks like
Lauren: you’re taking out the iron robot.
Ralph: Yeah, that’s good. So, we sort of explained it at high level. If people want more of this or to [00:47:00] understand it or be able to follow it or even take their teams through it.
I think this is actually, if you have a media buying team or you’re even an agency or you have a marketing team, let’s just call what it is. Like a lot of people are listening to this and they might not have a team, or maybe it’s just for yourself if you’re running ads. Like this is a tremendous framework that keeps you on track, and I think that’s the big part of it because there’s a lot to look at.
There’s a lot of shiny objects and you can get distracted with all the data. Obviously the undercurrent of all this is that, you know, the KPIs that you mentioned, you are exceedingly great inside Wicked Reports. So there is that, which really does help. However, once you get in there, this training and or without Wicked reports.
This training, I think is critical for any marketer, especially right now. ’cause there is so much noise that’s out there and this keeps you on the straight and narrow.
Scott: Yeah, it’s, definitely measurement system agnostic. And so you get tools, downloads in [00:48:00] here. All the slides are downloadable, but you also get a blueprint that you follow.
So it’s step by step. And then some of those slides I showed there, you know, it’ll map as long as you. Once you get pick the right intention, it’ll tell you a lot of the other settings to choose. And then this formula is for calculating your scale, chill, kill zone. Then there’s an optimization blue step by step process that you what data points to look at based on.
So you
Ralph: get all the worksheets
Scott: and everything that we talked about here? Yep. All the worksheets. So, and then you can use it with whatever system you’re using. Yeah. So where can people get that? Five forces.com. That’s the number five. Still negotiating the other domain I may have FIVE as well. I feel like I kind of gotta buy it now.
Lauren: I feel like Rob probably would be into it. So watch out.
Scott: Yeah, I think I’m gonna, actually, I’m going back and forth on CDO about the price with the guy. Yeah, I just, I just
Ralph: bought it and I trademarked it, so, uh, and of course for Perpetual Traffic listeners, you’ve got a special offer.
Scott: I got a huge offer, so the course is [00:49:00] 1500 bucks.
However, perpetual traffic, I’m gonna take 800 bucks off. Wow. Discount code pt, it’ll be good through Q3. So you have three months to take us up on that, so it’ll be you need for
Lauren: Black Friday.
Ralph: You did it before. Yep. Oh yeah. Your team needs it before Black Friday. That’s kind of the big thing.
Lauren: Yeah. It’s like we, we start Black Friday planning next month.
We’re like two weeks away. Mm-hmm. When H two kicks off, so does Black Friday. Lauren
Ralph: started planning back in February.
Lauren: Yeah. Well, I mean, like for those listening, I’ve been on this so long enough, you know that like September with Labor Day is your mini Black Friday, so you have to make sure you everything in place to do a.
soft launch of what your offer is gonna be and that you build all your new customers to retarget. ’cause if you’re spending money on new in October and November, boy you a sucker.
Ralph: So you need to train on five forces. Now in preparation for that is what you’re saying.
Lauren: I’m saying, with the way Zuckerberg and all the ADD companies are going, like the [00:50:00] networks that allow us to do advertising on, they’re trying to eliminate the need for media buying.
But the role of a media buyer isn’t gonna go away, it’s just going to evolve. And a lot of it has to be into how do you interpret and leverage the data? ’cause AI is gonna be making a lot of the decisions you don’t have to anymore, but you’re still gonna be needed for decisions. Like how are you gonna scale appropriately and how do you interpret the data that AI is choosing?
And with Facebook, you’re losing a lot of control on which buttons to push, but here you can do what strategies to move.
Ralph: What’s my intention? What’s my expectation? What actions am I gonna take? Yeah. It’s almost like found foundational
Lauren: marketing that you’re having in a world where AI is taking over so much.
These are the pieces you can’t neglect. Like you can’t neglect the economics, and you definitely can’t neglect the psychology behind your offer. Like all of those are gonna matter tremendously. And this is just empowering you if you’re, I mean, it says for intermediate marketers, but this, I would almost say like if you’re.
Wanting to be intermediate. This is gonna be something that’s gonna call you away from the rest. ’cause I [00:51:00] know that if someone can keep up on a conversation about this with me, they already are off on a good start.
Scott: Hmm.
Lauren: It’s a lot of noise in the world right now. A lot of folks that are making claims, and I’m coming after you, TikTok folks that say, look, I just made a million dollars and they only spend 500.
I’m like, you liar. You’re not showing the rest of the story.
Ralph: Yeah. Don’t believe everything that you see on TikTok. So once again, the discount for perpetual traffic listeners is they enter code pt, like a checkout. How do they get that? Let’s just make sure we’re clear There. Over five forces with the number five.
forces.com. Correct. PT, take off. 800 bucks. Discount pt. Can you remember that? that’s worth $800. Two letters right there.
Lauren: Two letters. 800 bucks.
Ralph: 200 bucks. That is, a lot of money on each letter. So anyway. Well, this has been great. you know, obviously if you’ve been listening to the show here, definitely check us out over on YouTube.
But I’ve said that before. You should know this [00:52:00] by now, you should be subscribed for crying out loud, but if you’re not, head on over to perpetual traffic.com/youtube so you can watch today’s episode and see this in action. And I think the coolest thing is with the course, you get all the spreadsheets, all the stuff you talked about, like you gave examples in this, but it’s like how can you do this for your business, for your department, for your agency?
I think this is essential. and it really does eliminate all the noise that’s out there right now. So check it out over@fiveforces.com. Make sure that you do enter the coupon code PT to save 800 bucks. Thank you, Scott. Duh. Cross C. Yeah. Oh my God. Gross ca Oh my God. I’m reverting back. That’s why I just call you Wicked Scott.
Crying out loud. well. What works is, uh, all the links in the show notes are gonna be over@perpetualtraffic.com of course. Mm. And wherever you listen to podcasts, make sure that you leave us a rating and review. It helps us to get out to a [00:53:00] larger audience and teach people the right way to do this stuff, like the Five Forces.
So, on behalf of my amazing cohost, Lauren e Petrillo, until next show, see you.
