You think you know how to sell until you hear Oren Klaff talk about it. Today, we’re hosting the man behind Pitch Anything and Flip the Script to uncover why most marketers lose deals before they even start. Oren doesn’t just challenge conventional sales wisdom. He flips it upside down, showing how neediness kills deals.
Oren Klaff is a leading expert in sales, raising capital, and negotiation. As Director of Capital Markets for Intersection Capital, he has helped companies secure billions of dollars in funding. He’s a best-selling author, a sought-after speaker for global giants like Google and Xerox, and a pioneer in neuroscience-based persuasion.
Oren explains why marketers must learn to hold boundaries, call out clients’ “games,” and create consequences on every sales call or risk being dismissed as low status. His approach is raw, counterintuitive, and insanely practical for anyone who needs to persuade at scale. If you’re ready to rethink how you pitch, sell, and win deals, this one is for you!
In This Episode:
00:00 Meet Oren Klaff
03:01 Writing the ‘Pitch Anything’ book
06:35 Why neediness when selling kills deals
09:53 Practical sales techniques to break neediness
16:31 How to maintain a high status in sales calls
22:30 Dealing with the ‘final boss’ in negotiations
28:07 The importance of setting consequences in sales
36:19 Holding clients accountable for their behavior and values
38:30 Pitch Anything vs. Flip the Script
42:29 How to connect with Oren
Buy Oren Klaff’s Books:
- Pitch Anything: https://a.co/d/fRAqAby
- Flip The Script: https://a.co/d/hTcp9lP
Mentioned In the Episode:
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Connect with Oren Klaff:
- Website – https://orenklaff.com/
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/orenklaff/
Connect with Ralph Burns:
- LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/ralphburns
- Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/ralphhburns/
- Hire Tier11 – https://www.tiereleven.com/apply-now
Connect with Lauren Petrullo:
- Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/laurenepetrullo/
- LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurenpetrullo
- Consult Mongoose Media – https://mongoosemedia.us/
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READ THE TRANSCRIPT:
Flip the Script: A Masterclass on Pitching Anything With Oren Klaff
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:17
Oren
You cannot sell to someone from the low status position does not work. Stop fucking saying please and thank you so much.
00:00:08:19 - 00:00:16:10
Ralph
Maybe just give the folks sort of an overview of what I feel is an incredibly solid and effective persuasion strategy.
00:00:16:11 - 00:00:21:07
Oren
Where all the tactics stem from is you have to have one.
00:00:23:16 - 00:00:31:17
Ralph
Hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic Podcast. This is your host, Ralph Burns, founder and CEO of tier 11, alongside my amazing co-host.
00:00:31:17 - 00:00:34:15
Lauren
Lauren E Petrillo, the founder of Mongoose Media.
00:00:34:17 - 00:00:57:14
Ralph
So glad you joined us here today. And if you are a VP of marketing, Director of marketing, CMO, somebody who's doing your digital marketing or just a doer of digital marketing, today's show is for you because you probably know how to market. If you've listened to 700 plus episodes of the show here, but you probably don't know how to sell as well as you probably could.
00:00:57:14 - 00:01:14:23
Ralph
And that is not necessarily selling products. That's also selling ideas. My dad once said this he was an artist, by the way. Lauren. He said, you know, it's really important to know how to sell, because really in life you are selling everything from your ideas to your products to how you win an argument, etc., etc. so it's a skill you should learn.
00:01:15:01 - 00:01:33:11
Ralph
And yes, when I came out of college, because I had basically just a marketing background and no contacts, I got into sales. Ever since then, I've been learning how to perfect it. And this guy's book, which I read, who was on today's show, I can't believe we got him to come on. And literally, I don't know, your friend, Scott de Garcia, which I can't believe.
00:01:33:11 - 00:01:41:01
Ralph
You know, we have that sort of common connection here. We have got, I think, I hate to say it because I've read so many sales book.
00:01:41:02 - 00:01:43:13
Lauren
You got to sell it now. You have no choice.
00:01:43:15 - 00:01:58:04
Ralph
Pitch anything is like the best sales book I've ever read. I mean, I know I'm going to piss off Tom Hopkins, who I did, you know, learn how to sell through him. But he's now come out with another book called Flip the Script. Got him here on Perpetual traffic here today. So this is a real treat for us.
00:01:58:04 - 00:02:01:20
Ralph
Welcome to perpetual traffic orange clef.
00:02:01:22 - 00:02:17:13
Oren
Hey. Thank you, thank you, Ralph and Lauren. I appreciate being here. And, what a warm welcome. Let's, make it. The welcomes are nice with the beginning of the show. Let's see if you can say the same thing in 45 minutes.
00:02:17:15 - 00:02:25:23
Ralph
Well, the thing that you like. I was asking you before, like, how do you want to be introduced? Because you're a bestselling author. Two books. But you know, you've raised $400 million. You have.
00:02:26:02 - 00:02:31:07
Lauren
I thought about half of the things he listed on his resume for that one. But okay, that's true.
00:02:31:09 - 00:02:54:15
Ralph
But you manage money for 400 families, which is something to be proud of. Like that's an amazing achievement unto itself. The books are probably what we're going to be talking about here today, because probably that those skills helped raise the funds in order to help all those 400 families. And you've read you've written two books, obviously, pitch anything, which we'll leave links in the show notes.
00:02:54:15 - 00:03:21:21
Ralph
If you haven't read this, you got to read it or listen to it on audio. And then you just came out with a new book, Flip the Script recently, and maybe just give the folks sort of an overview of what the whole idea behind Pitch Anything is. And then maybe we can talk about the second book and then how they kind of merged together, and how those ideas really helped formulate what I feel is an incredibly solid and effective persuasion strategy.
00:03:21:21 - 00:03:35:11
Ralph
I would say. I wouldn't even say it's like a sales tactic, because we're not talking about spin selling here. It's a way to persuade and to sort of control the conversation. And I think these books do a tremendous job with that. So maybe just give us an overview of of pitch, anything to start.
00:03:35:11 - 00:03:55:09
Oren
I think it's important to understand what an author is to when you go to pick up and read a book, you know, and look at sales guys who, you know, have 17 books or 13 books or eight books. When I was writing Pitch Anything, I had a very good, well-known, friend of mine, well-known screenwriter, wrote Collateral Damage or The Hunted with Nagasaki Deadline and wrote movies you would have seen in the theater.
00:03:55:09 - 00:04:10:12
Oren
What happens is when you get a book contract, you talk to your friends, you go on podcasts, you you sort of make outlines, and eventually your agent calls and she goes, can I see chapter one and two? You're like, right. And then can you start writing chapter one and two? And then and they're like, this is not that.
00:04:10:13 - 00:04:27:08
Oren
You know, we want a book, not a white paper or some random thoughts to write just because you can read and just because you can talk does not mean you can write a book. You know, you should ask about that Stephen King. All right. The writing is something different. And so I call my buddy, David Griffith.
00:04:27:08 - 00:04:45:00
Oren
And I said, David, I finally started writing. I wrote 2000 words today. I'm going to have the book done by the end of the month. He was. Oren. That's amazing. You wrote 2000 words today. I go, yes, David, I swear to God, I did 2008 words. He goes, go back and read them.
00:04:45:02 - 00:04:46:07
Ralph
Yeah.
00:04:46:09 - 00:05:10:08
Oren
Writing for real writers, Stephen King guys. Oh you who do quality writing is about 150 through through the annals of history is about 150 to 250 words a day. You mean writing 13 books in three years that are real books. So Pitch Anything is a real book. And one of the issues is a real book has everything in it that is you.
00:05:10:10 - 00:05:35:16
Oren
This is why it's really hard to write 13 books, right? You know, if you're if you're not a professional, right? If you're a sales guy, if you're a marketer, if you're a business guy, there's not 13 you's that have come into existence in five years. There's one. So I most of the great books, there's one of the movies to saw one Blair Witch Project, one, the one where they go to Las Vegas and Mike Tyson and Mike Tyson and they get a tiger.
00:05:35:16 - 00:05:41:09
Oren
Oh the hangover, hang on. Hangover, hangover one. Hangover three was not good. Hangover was there? Hold on.
00:05:41:11 - 00:05:44:12
Lauren
But rush hour. The rush hour had a great trilogy.
00:05:44:12 - 00:05:46:16
Oren
Rush hour okay, I'm.
00:05:46:17 - 00:05:48:01
Lauren
An exception to the rule.
00:05:48:03 - 00:06:09:00
Oren
I don't have a time machine that goes back that far. I'm just kind of talking about the modern era. But the Pleistocene age, post dinosaurs. So absolutely. A creative endeavor encompasses all of you. Right. And and that's why these the books that you loved. Hopkins. You know, book would you mentioned the sales books. The marketing books.
00:06:09:00 - 00:06:29:05
Oren
There's one of, that's great is because it has everything that's in the life of that person. And that person doesn't have two lives. Now they will get a second life, which I wrote about and flipped the script. And, you know, ten years later, after having, you know, number one book for ten years, a lot of things change got deeper, got richer, new insights.
00:06:29:07 - 00:06:41:17
Oren
But, you know, you want to look at that author. And what did they really put into the book, and why did they get into writing the book? I had an inflection point that led me to this. The guy wrote about it in the book I called Jonathan is a Real guy. I didn't write about this at all.
00:06:41:17 - 00:06:59:15
Oren
We were in a deal and I needed the closing fee on it. The guys that we were selling the deal to were being very difficult, right? And they kept asking questions and wanting more information and not closing. And it was a couple million dollar wire. So back then it was before Gmail. You just had Microsoft and would ding when your email remedying.
00:06:59:21 - 00:07:20:21
Oren
Right. And we're tracking this deal. We're trying to close it. I really need the commission. Jonathan sent an email that everybody, 15 people copied on it. The subject line, all caps, three words, lose my number in the middle of a deal. And where I came from, like nobody talks to anybody like that. I came from a, my dad was a college professor and both my parents are academics.
00:07:21:02 - 00:07:40:09
Oren
I went to you know, very conservative institutions. And I worked in very conservative banks. So it all caps email to 15 people in the middle of a deal says lose my number is like, this is done right. There's no reality in which this is moving another millimeter down the road. And then ping ping ping ping ping.
00:07:40:09 - 00:08:04:15
Oren
And I'm expecting all the RFU deal done. And all I start saying is we're sorry. Sorry, Jonathan I didn't mean to be. And the deal closed ten minutes later and I said what alternate universe am I in? And then I started noticing that, you know, he had the ability to really is never be needy. And what I learned there is neediness, kills, deals.
00:08:04:17 - 00:08:33:06
Oren
So how can you both be selling somebody and needing something and wanting something and needing the commission, or needing the traffic, or needing the relationship and at the same time wanting it, loving it, being enamored with it, desiring it, and fundamentally in your DNA, maybe economically, actually needing it, but not needing it at all. And living in that space became the meaning of my life.
00:08:33:07 - 00:08:42:16
Oren
Learning how to live in that gray area, with wanting something with my heart and desire and mine more than anything else, but not wanting it at all.
00:08:42:21 - 00:09:04:08
Ralph
I think that's the hardest part of of sales, in my opinion, because you always want the sale. But if you come across and I remember just coming across that concept and pitch anything and then obviously and it shows up and flip the script as well is like that idea. And then trying to teach that to like my sales teams.
00:09:04:08 - 00:09:20:11
Ralph
And it's the hardest thing. And you gave an example and flipped the script where you got to North Dakota and you try and teach people how to do this. For I forget the name of the it's like a motor, like a cool man, a motorcycle star, real company, Jeep smart. And I was like, how the hell? And you didn't really say, like, how you did it.
00:09:20:12 - 00:09:38:03
Ralph
They just started selling more. I'm like, how did he figure out how to do that? And that's it. Everybody's been in this situation where it's like, you know, so what do you think? You know, like trial closes, always be closing. Like all that sort of bull crap that we learned in sales school. It's like it's the opposite is true.
00:09:38:05 - 00:09:53:05
Ralph
And I'm teaching my sales teams now in my own business how to do it. And they're like, I'm amazed that this actually works. But then they fall back into these same old traps, like, how do you do that? Because that's like a theme throughout both books, which I think is super important to comprehend.
00:09:53:05 - 00:10:13:02
Oren
I think there's a 101, you know, just like college is a 101, a 102, a 103, 201 and then graduate level work. So maybe I can give you some insight onto, you know, the various levels. You know, I've taught 80,000 people from stage these couple of techniques. So I know because you'll come back the next day or that afternoon and they go, I just close a $300,000 account.
00:10:13:02 - 00:10:37:20
Oren
I did that yesterday at work, I did it, I got my self-respect back. That's greatness. Whether make the money closed deals or not. But if somebody doesn't have to live in fear of clients and accounts and sales managers and can live knowing that they ended the day with grace, poise, self-respect left it all in the field and let it all work itself out.
00:10:38:00 - 00:10:44:03
Oren
That, to me is an amazing gift. And I think it starts here. Stop fucking saying please and thank you so much.
00:10:45:00 - 00:10:51:15
Oren
And I'll tell you why there's nothing wrong. Well please and thank you. And I'm sorry I myself say I'm sorry twice a year.
00:10:51:15 - 00:10:54:07
Lauren
Twice a year Christmas and your partners.
00:10:54:08 - 00:11:00:00
Oren
But then maybe not that often but it sounds good on a podcast. I don't want to say. I don't want to say zero sound. Are.
00:11:00:00 - 00:11:04:16
Lauren
You have to apologize for lying. Did we get our one for the year?
00:11:04:18 - 00:11:26:17
Oren
I will say, Lauren, I appreciate how you feel. I can understand that it's miserable, I mean misery, and it's why I will tell sales prospects at this point. Lauren, let me tell you how it all ends. The sun burns out and human civilization goes away. All right, so before that happens, let's try and figure out how we're going to do this together.
00:11:26:19 - 00:11:49:12
Oren
The reason we got to stop saying please, sorry and thank you is there's nothing wrong with those. You cannot modulate it. So unless you just take it away completely, you're just going to use those fillers for emotional dopamine pings. You'll get some. The reason you do it is you get something for it. You get attention. Please. Thank you.
00:11:49:14 - 00:12:02:15
Oren
I'm sorry. Gives you points in in the game, but you know you're trying to win points. You from commitments, right? You're right. Oh I just got another you know I just got another couple points in the game. This call continues.
00:12:02:17 - 00:12:17:15
Lauren
I mean I know it's so true because there are times where I've been like just just apologize. Just gosh dang it. Like apologize like I don't understand like it will help you so much more from my ego's perspective, for someone to admit that they were wrong and like, just apologize. But yeah, I'm 100% keeping.
00:12:17:15 - 00:12:33:06
Oren
Score as young salesperson Ralph can't modulate those words, and those words are supplication. And when you say please, thank you and I'm sorry to a sales process, like they know that they have the high status position in a relationship, the.
00:12:33:06 - 00:12:33:12
Lauren
Power of.
00:12:33:18 - 00:12:42:23
Oren
Number two. So if that's 101 and I'll give you a way to make that happen. If you get on a call, get give me an example of salespeople that you work with and who they get on a call.
00:12:42:23 - 00:12:54:08
Ralph
With the habit. I always first break is is thank you so much for meeting with us. It's like all you know, it's the first mistake I think, you know, thank you so much for taking the time.
00:12:54:10 - 00:13:00:01
Oren
Give me the set up. Who is the salesperson? Who is a client? What are the stakes? What's the size of the deal?
00:13:00:04 - 00:13:19:06
Ralph
Average sized deal for us is about a quarter of $1 million a year IRR. And it's a sales prospect in the e-commerce niche. And you know, it's a sought after, like beauty brand that probably a lot of agencies are coming after. And the first thing that the salesperson wants to say is, thank you so much for taking the time to meet us.
00:13:19:08 - 00:13:25:05
Oren
Got it? I'm going to fix that right now. That's good because good high stake sale. Who's the buyer who's typically on the line?
00:13:25:06 - 00:13:37:20
Ralph
It's usually the director of digital, the director of marketing, something like that. So it's not usually the CEO at that level, but it sometimes it can be they'll bring them in every now and then, but usually it's somebody who reports to somebody else for sure.
00:13:38:01 - 00:13:52:03
Oren
Self-Entitled high status feels that they have the control and the relationship feels like the power and the relationship belongs to them. Right. 19 out of times those guys come to the zoom or the phone call a few minutes late. Fair.
00:13:52:05 - 00:13:58:02
Ralph
Oh, absolutely. Every single time. Yes. Just like I do, except today.
00:13:58:03 - 00:14:09:00
Oren
Hundred percent of the time I will say, hey, Ralph, are you here for the 1235 meeting? Because the 1230 meeting is just starting to get going and might even wrap.
00:14:09:00 - 00:14:11:12
Ralph
Up small acts of defiance.
00:14:11:14 - 00:14:13:22
Oren
Are you here for the 1235 meeting?
00:14:13:23 - 00:14:15:15
Lauren
That's bold.
00:14:15:17 - 00:14:16:20
Ralph
That's good.
00:14:16:22 - 00:14:46:09
Oren
So this scares young people to say it where? So unfortunately, I go to meetings yesterday. Guys who manage billion dollar funds multiple times. Billionaires definitely guys were 20, 30, 40, $150 million. I've helped people sell multiple multiple companies. You know, where they walked away with $130 million? I deal with people who are self enamored, self empowered, feel like they have the alpha position in every deal, no matter what, and they always come to calls late.
00:14:46:09 - 00:14:54:23
Oren
And I always go, hey Jim, you here for the 913 meeting? And, and guess what they always say? Always. I'm sorry.
00:14:55:01 - 00:14:56:02
Lauren
Hold on.
00:14:56:04 - 00:15:04:22
Oren
Now. It just went backwards, I reversed gravity. Now you're apologizing to me, and this is set up correctly.
00:15:04:23 - 00:15:06:20
Lauren
It was your wicked moment. Defying gravity.
00:15:06:20 - 00:15:10:07
Oren
So that's 101. 102. Stop saying sorry.
00:15:10:07 - 00:15:16:01
Ralph
Please stop saying sorry. But it potentially prompt them to say sorry is sort of the 1 or 2.
00:15:16:04 - 00:15:33:15
Oren
Listen, this is why. Because in our culture, everybody understands the value of time. Billionaires understand the value of time. Even if you are the guy doing the valet, they booked the valet, you know, for, you know, 3 p.m., they show up at 305, the valet guy goes, hey, I've been waiting for you. The first thing I might say are sorry.
00:15:33:15 - 00:15:55:01
Oren
I'm sorry. That's our culture. Timeliness is one of the most respected early signals of having a quality value system that matches in with our Judeo-Christian political, social culture that we have here in America. People don't understand the value of time, don't go far in our system. It's just how we work. I don't know how they do in Scandinavia.
00:15:55:02 - 00:16:05:13
Oren
I don't know how they do it in Nicaragua. That's how we do it here. And so you said an iron man. That worked pretty good for that. We're pretty good for me. And that's how the government does it. Introducing the Jericho.
00:16:05:15 - 00:16:09:17
Lauren
Yeah, but you didn't like the second and third one though, because it was just one out of them.
00:16:09:19 - 00:16:23:21
Ralph
Yes. By the way, Oren is the first guest we've ever had and 700 some odd episodes who was a minute early and as was I, I was three minutes early. But that unto itself, you set the frame like, is that the first sort of step.
00:16:23:21 - 00:16:25:12
Oren
For that is setting the for everyone.
00:16:25:12 - 00:16:31:17
Ralph
Says, you know, frame selling. That's what Oren teaches. He teaches frame selling. I'm like, well, okay, what is it?
00:16:31:19 - 00:16:53:20
Oren
Let me take it a little bit further for your guys. So what you're trying to do is you are taking a very, very, very high status person and you are reducing their status to below yours. This is not game theory, although it is game theory. It is not Machiavellian. It is not intended to, hurt people or malign people.
00:16:53:22 - 00:17:14:13
Oren
But here is the reality. If somebody has higher status than you, they have some physical things that happen in your body when you have high status. One you don't listen well to the low status person that's talking to you. Number two, you take risks with them that you would not take with somebody that is higher status in you.
00:17:14:13 - 00:17:27:13
Oren
Of course, you know risks. They're not medieval risks, but you know they will. Oh hey. Sorry. You know. Yeah. Oh, really? No, the ahi pokey is fine, but the,
00:17:27:15 - 00:17:33:17
Lauren
No, for those listening, you can't see that he's now taking a phone call ordering a phone. Bradford.
00:17:33:19 - 00:17:39:20
Ralph
That's right. Ordering sushi. In the middle of a professional traffic episode. Yeah. Anyway. But got it.
00:17:39:20 - 00:17:52:11
Oren
When you're trying to get your kid into the Harvard prep school, and you're sitting there with the president and the dean of admissions, right. Your phone is on your. You're the lower status party and your phone is on off.
00:17:52:12 - 00:17:53:13
Ralph
Yeah, yeah.
00:17:53:15 - 00:17:57:06
Lauren
So I been in the room potentially. It's in a bag in the contacts.
00:17:57:06 - 00:18:30:14
Oren
It's not enough. Your wife is going to turn it into an underwater phone in the women's bathroom. All right. You are not taking any risk. So when somebody views themselves as having more power than you, higher status in you, they don't listen to you well, they will take risks around you and they will discount the things you say, even if you're an expert in it to where their own opinion on something they know nothing about will have more weight than yours, you have got to lower somebody's status down to yours or below yours just so they can listen to you.
00:18:30:15 - 00:18:53:17
Oren
You cannot sell to someone from the low status position does not work. And so you've got to bring their status into alignment with yours. Now there are tactics for doing that. And we can talk about that for an hour, two hours, three hours, nine hours, whatever. But where all the tactics stem from is you have to have one, a value system that you are anchored to.
00:18:53:19 - 00:19:14:01
Oren
And I think I did write about that in the script. If there is a perception that you don't stand for anything other than money, you will occupy the low status position and sell from discounts. So I would love for you guys to attend to my calls. You know I'll be on a $3 million investment. You know I had three guys on the thing.
00:19:14:01 - 00:19:27:14
Oren
They had their CFO on the call you know. And he'll be going like this and I'll go hey Matt. Lauren what are you. They're looking at the phone mic. Hey, man, what are you doing? Like, we're together for 30 minutes, right? If you don't have time for calls, don't book them. Right. Look at me. I came to this call.
00:19:27:15 - 00:19:43:16
Oren
I have you have a $2 million facility. You know, which I should just call. I've got a I've got an operator. You know who operates this call? I take this very seriously. If you don't have half an hour. Right. Who are you? I don't know who you people are. Right? How am I going to take $3 million from you?
00:19:43:18 - 00:20:00:07
Oren
Now? There's the key, Ralph. How am I going to take $3 million from you if I don't know who you are or why you do things, and so you don't. Now, if I asked you, what's your value system? You tell me. Like what? Do you believe in me?
00:20:00:09 - 00:20:20:14
Ralph
Yeah. Well, I believe in all the stuff that I repeat to my kids, which is do the right thing, you know, be a good person, you know, honest, all that sort of stuff.
00:20:20:16 - 00:20:22:01
Lauren
I was like, I've got my two.
00:20:22:01 - 00:20:25:20
Oren
This is a set up. You're just going to read me the Bible, okay? Right.
00:20:25:21 - 00:20:26:23
Lauren
Wait, no.
00:20:27:01 - 00:20:33:13
Ralph
It's not an answer I would typically give. I would give like the watered down version unless we like really got into it.
00:20:33:15 - 00:20:54:22
Oren
You know. Yeah. You're just going to. So you as a young salesperson or a sales manager or somebody wants to sell now marketing, you have to figure out what you believe in. Now, what's in the Bible, not don't bang your neighbor's wife. Not, don't, you know, feed your kid chocolate before bed? What do you believe in? And those become your boundaries.
00:20:55:00 - 00:21:18:10
Oren
And those boundaries are the safest thing in the world to have honesty about. Because if somebody is outside your boundaries, then you're not going to do a deal with them anyway, for sure. And what I seek in a transaction that raises my status and lowers the other person is when they say weird stuff, which the buyer always will.
00:21:18:10 - 00:21:32:19
Oren
Especially the more experienced you are with buyers in your industry, they will say something weird, right? I'll give you an example. If you're dealing with a big company, they'll ask for a discount. Hey, we're Microsoft, right? You know, hey, we represent a big purchase. You know, we always ask for our vendors. What are you talking about? Right?
00:21:32:21 - 00:21:55:18
Oren
You're saying we're a big company? We have a hold on. Let me see. Oh, you have $128 billion in cash, right? We're a nine person company, and you're saying that you you want a tiny company to give you a discount for no other reason than you can control them, right? And so when you have power, what you do is you exert your control.
00:21:55:20 - 00:22:10:11
Oren
Is that what you're saying? How would that feel if we have all your data, right. And then you calling on the weekend and we go, hey, we have we have now we have all the power. You need some data sorting, you know, over the weekend it's $50,000 out of your account or you can wait till Tuesday. How would you rate?
00:22:10:13 - 00:22:26:01
Oren
Why in the world would Microsoft, who has the ability to pay for this, want us to? Because if we discount this, we can't do customer service properly. We can't buy AI properly. We can't, we can't. We set this pricing because we have a gross margin, a net like this. If you guys want to do a business deal, let me know.
00:22:26:05 - 00:22:45:03
Oren
If you just want to stomp around saying we're Microsoft and we want a discount, let me know. I'll give you another example. It's always a case where you see the final boss in a deal. You're doing a negotiation 250,000 on the contract. So right. Everybody's agreeing to it. You're in the final negotiation. What happens is somebody you never heard of has not been in any of the meetings, has never been mentioned.
00:22:45:03 - 00:23:10:21
Oren
It shows up and goes, hey, what's going on here? Like, you know, we do this all the time, but we need a 15% discount in order to go forward with it. The final boss, it's in every video game, but it's also in every negotiation. And so if you have a belief system in a value system that says this is atrocious, to have your executives negotiate for six weeks, eight weeks, 12 weeks and a quarter million dollar, half million dollar thing, everybody signed off, literally have a DocuSign circulating.
00:23:11:00 - 00:23:32:07
Oren
And then somebody you've never met before stomp in and go, I can't approve this without getting a discount. And so what I will always do, and maybe this is 201, I'll say, hey John, but great, you're done. Right? So a couple things going on here. One, right. This is just your guys negotiation strategy. And it least is like a goofy thing.
00:23:32:07 - 00:23:52:13
Oren
You guys do. You found that it works over time and you just do it. All right. No problem. Great respect. You pull the performance. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It's not going to work here. Right. So either either it's a performance that you guys do and it has worked in the past. And you get 1,520% off for just you never get.
00:23:52:19 - 00:24:10:21
Oren
And you guys have a belief system that says you never get anything you don't ask for. So you just come in and ask for it. But I'm just telling you that goofy, this is the real world. Or there's another option is this is like the real you as a company and yourself, and you guys take up 30, 40 hours of our time.
00:24:10:21 - 00:24:29:23
Oren
We have a contract going back and forth. We have five people working on this. We've been to seven meetings. We honestly disclose our price, disclose our service. You guys shopped it a little bit. Your executives came together, right? And then at the last minute, after all that work has been done, relationship, trust, ideas, exposure, risk of being put in place.
00:24:30:01 - 00:24:53:21
Oren
And then you show up at the last minute, right. And and you, you know, add chaos, this ingenuity, and and break trust. And if that's who you really are, just tell me and we will pack our stuff and you can go use india.com, you know, and get it in China or India, right. Or somewhere else. But that is not how we build a relationship.
00:24:53:21 - 00:24:56:19
Oren
And these deals don't work with our relationship.
00:24:56:21 - 00:25:24:15
Ralph
So man of these books are it's counterintuitive because in the sales process I'm just speaking like whether you're pitching or whether you're selling, it's like you you don't ever want to be the supplicant, but you want to be. Everyone wants to be liked and is so afraid of upsetting the prospect because, oh, if I upset them, then they won't buy, when in fact the opposite is true.
00:25:24:17 - 00:25:40:04
Ralph
It's like you talk about small acts of defiance, but doing it sort of a snarky way, or maybe a humorous way or, you know, take the moral high ground and stick to it and be like, wait a second, but what are you talking about? Like we have we have a sign contract. Who's this guy coming in and going 15?
00:25:40:06 - 00:26:07:02
Ralph
Like calling bullshit when you see it. Like no sales person I've ever seen, with the exception, maybe 1 or 2 will actually respond to it the way that most normal humans would, because like the sales interaction is like in this completely different world, almost where it's like, oh, everybody's just trying to be nice to the other one. And somebody is on the high ground and somebody is on the lower ground, and you're like, completely trying to reverse that.
00:26:07:04 - 00:26:09:05
Ralph
In so many different methodologies.
00:26:09:07 - 00:26:25:00
Oren
I may have a solution that would be difficult to use, but just so you know, it exists and you can use it, I will say, in the middle of a, sale, you know, or a capital raise roof. And this way, if you read pitch anything, this will be very counterintuitive. You don't want to scare you. Let me get all the way through it.
00:26:25:02 - 00:26:32:17
Oren
Ralph, I love you. This, I love you. This is a. You're amazing.
00:26:32:19 - 00:26:34:14
Lauren
I is blushing.
00:26:34:16 - 00:26:54:01
Oren
I want to work with you. I want to add you to our Christmas card list. I want to work with you. I hope we get in proximity. If you're like my other customers, we get to know each other a little bit. And sometimes we take vacations together. And I actually am very excited about doing this transaction together. You can have my phone number, you can have my backup phone.
00:26:54:06 - 00:27:06:10
Oren
You know, you can fax this on the weekend. I love you for the moment. Unfortunately, because of the nature of our business, I have 37 other Ralph's to get to.
00:27:06:12 - 00:27:10:22
Oren
But for the moment, we have each other. Right now.
00:27:11:00 - 00:27:11:16
Ralph
We're in embrace.
00:27:11:16 - 00:27:34:10
Oren
Right. And we can make. I'm happy for you to say, because they're trying to book me for another Ralph. But I'm here. I'm focused on what you need. I'm focused on this agreement. I'm working hard right now to make this relationship. No problem. You can say, hey, Orrin, your head is full of dead insects. Okay, let me off this call as quickly as possible.
00:27:34:12 - 00:27:50:09
Oren
Or, Orrin, I feel the same way as you. There's a transaction here, right? We can figure it out with the time we have together. This is a start of something amazing. Let's make it happen. So, Ralph, what should we be doing together?
00:27:50:11 - 00:27:51:15
Ralph
I think we should hang out.
00:27:51:15 - 00:27:52:22
Lauren
Really? Making something.
00:27:52:22 - 00:27:59:00
Ralph
Amazing. Just making something amazing. Oh, let's go ride motorcycles together. Oh, I'm in the armored.
00:27:59:05 - 00:28:03:04
Lauren
How dare you leave the house! How dare you leave me out, Lauren!
00:28:03:04 - 00:28:07:06
Ralph
I don't even know who she is. Oh, so, like, your point is, you can go in either direction.
00:28:07:06 - 00:28:28:08
Oren
You have to. It comes back to the same thing Yogi Berra said. When you come to a fork in the road, take it. And this if we are anywhere on this call for the lost selling souls of the marketing people are trying to get in the selling, it is this. There has to be consequences on the call. If there are no consequences.
00:28:28:08 - 00:28:48:02
Oren
It's not a sales call. It's an exchange of information. It's due diligence if there are no consequences. Right. So for many calls I will say, listen, right. I came here with everything we got together. You've got some timing problems. You have some all this goofy stuff that you're talking about, right? Are things here's what I'm going to do.
00:28:48:07 - 00:28:56:06
Oren
I'm going to have you work with Cassandra. Okay? She's new here.
00:28:56:08 - 00:29:00:20
Lauren
Why are you laughing at Cassandra? Wait. Hold on. She's not. She's learning. She's new.
00:29:00:20 - 00:29:21:18
Oren
Here. She just moved up from intern, right? She's an associate. She's fine your way around, but. But you ask her for information. She will. To get your information. You work with Cassandra, with all your questions and the stuff you need. When you are ready to get into the big boy sandbox, right, jump back in and let's see if we can get real.
00:29:21:20 - 00:29:41:10
Oren
All right, we'll figure it out. But in the meantime, Cassandra is going to take care of everything you need. And so now you're taking away the toys. The. Now, if you have framed yourself up as an expert, somebody has access to technology to a deal, to to pricing, to everything. You have to be able to take yourself away.
00:29:41:10 - 00:29:58:01
Oren
But now you don't want to go, hey, I'm not going to talk to you anymore until you get real. You you you. Right. That is the status push. You go down to, you know, Cass, who just moved up, from intern to associate. Is she going to take care of everything you need? That's where you merit that, right?
00:29:58:01 - 00:30:18:17
Oren
You have. You have been measured, and you measured up to work with associate when you want to move up and work with the real guys, come with some game. But right now, you don't have game. And I'm busy. And so you don't lose it. There's consequences. Or hey, you know, the consequences are you don't have to sign the contract.
00:30:18:17 - 00:30:38:17
Oren
You don't have to get a DocuSign. But when I say if you're if it makes sense that we move forward together and work hard to make this thing happen, then let's set up the next call. We'll exchange information and we'll go deeper. Ralph, I will not work harder in your business than you will. I have to see some effort on your side.
00:30:38:18 - 00:30:59:14
Lauren
So I just copy and paste that message into like, past conversations I've had with people where we've have to like, say, like we cannot be more passionate about growing your business than you are. Like, that's our our disclosure, where if we're chasing you for this, it will never work. Every time I had a client that didn't work, I wish I could have said that verbatim.
00:30:59:16 - 00:31:16:20
Oren
I don't Saint Lauren. I don't think the Navy Seals around like a secret training anymore. If you watch a six second video, they got Navy Seals and they carry a big log. All right. Have you ever seen, like, two Navy Seals on one side of the log and the other side log just magically carrying itself? This is a heavy log.
00:31:16:20 - 00:31:20:11
Oren
You're called your business.
00:31:20:13 - 00:31:21:03
Oren
You have.
00:31:21:03 - 00:31:28:14
Lauren
To. I'm just like, are these topless Navy Seals? Hold on. I this matters on how I'm managing this. Six that the.
00:31:28:16 - 00:31:49:09
Oren
Sandy and sweaty the, the first investor in the large, company I have now. It was a Navy Seal. And I know these guys really well. So listen, you, Lauren, Ralph, you guys have a problem, right? We solve that problem. That's what we do all day long. We've solved it for 250 people just like you.
00:31:49:09 - 00:32:09:01
Oren
This is what we do, right? You guys have backed yourself up. You made bad decisions. You got inadequate software. You. You know, you hired the wrong people. You went through a couple consultants, you got yourself into a crappy place. All right? We solve this problem like we don't have this problem. You have it. I don't have it. You have it.
00:32:09:03 - 00:32:29:21
Oren
Not only do you have it, you have it about as bad as it gets. What I mean by that is, if this problem gets any worse over there, we're not even interested in helping you because it's too hard. But today, this is something we do. You have to be committed to. This is a hard problem. We. But you have to be committed to solving.
00:32:29:21 - 00:32:50:07
Oren
I will not work harder in your business than you will. What sense is that? I don't want equity in it. I don't get paid by it. I don't get to go to the Christmas party. If you guys sell the company, I don't get to go to Nasdaq. And so I get nothing. All I do is get a paltry $250,000 annually, and which I have 30% gross margin, 5% net margin.
00:32:50:07 - 00:33:06:19
Oren
That's what I get. Hard fucking work. Do you know how SAS software works when we win this account? You think like we're popping a cork right? People are like, oh crap, you signed another one of those. I mean, don't worry, it will turn into something good. I believe in these guys. You are giving me anything except hard work and problems.
00:33:07:00 - 00:33:24:05
Oren
But this is what we do. The doesn't go, oh my God, it's Lauren's ostrich again. It goes fucking. We prefer to get kittens, but now we got another ostrich. We're a vet. That's what we do. We're. We're sworn to the code of helping people who have problem. That's what we do. I will help you out. And then we got to talk about the price.
00:33:24:06 - 00:33:31:03
Lauren
Cash. This is not so much like sales therapy. You just nice to you.
00:33:31:05 - 00:33:33:04
Ralph
I've said all this and all your calls.
00:33:33:04 - 00:33:51:21
Oren
Lauren, I do not recommend this. And it's not all you have to been in cycle hundreds of times in order to do it. But I will say, Ralph, come on, just go fuck yourself. Honestly, do you hear yourself? That is not a thing that you're talking about. Like, do you want to actually solve this or you want to do kabuki theater?
00:33:51:23 - 00:34:11:17
Oren
I have things to do. Listen, I'm trying to figure out the price with you. You know what the price is, all right? It's more than you want to pay. It's less than I want to charge. That's what the price is. Somewhere in the middle is something called fairness. I promise you of one thing can make any, you know, big promises.
00:34:11:17 - 00:34:29:14
Oren
But I do promise you this. When we go. This is the price you'll go. That's what I thought. It's completely fair. If you're looking for the one from Malaysia, Vietnam, China, Indonesia, Turkey. Go get that one. People solve this in many ways with me. You know, Lauren, to your point, women have babies all over the world, in fields and in huts.
00:34:29:14 - 00:34:50:21
Oren
You don't have to have an in La Hoya script hospital. It's the preferred place to do it. If you're like us, we have one kid. We know an emergency backups, right? That's where we had our kid. But you don't need to. We're not. I told you, I work with the Navy Seals for a long time. When we had our son, it was a she had very long labor, you know, it was like, you know, almost 24 hours.
00:34:50:21 - 00:35:08:18
Oren
Finally, everyone is gone. So they it was just the nurse practitioner, you know, to weigh the kid and everything. And my wife was passed out, and I was holding the baby, a doctor, everybody else had cleared out. And then the she's waiting the baby, and she goes, who rolled on this baby? Right. And so I.
00:35:08:20 - 00:35:11:04
Lauren
I had weight tattooed already.
00:35:11:06 - 00:35:30:06
Oren
Yeah, I do that with this Navy, with this Navy Seal guy from you know, in the old school, right from like, you know, Vietnam era. He's like, when you have the baby, you want to make sure to put your name on it so you can't switch it out. So I bring a, like a permanent marker and write my name, the date, like my signature that nobody else can do on the baby.
00:35:30:10 - 00:35:41:03
Oren
And and she goes, who wrote on this baby? And I'm like it. I'm definitely trouble because on my wife and she's sleeping guy, me and her are the only people in the room. Oh.
00:35:41:05 - 00:35:43:21
Lauren
One of his I'm sorry came out.
00:35:43:23 - 00:35:46:06
Oren
And yeah, that was a that was my annual.
00:35:46:08 - 00:35:48:00
Ralph
I'm that was your one on.
00:35:48:05 - 00:35:48:20
Oren
You only get what I was like.
00:35:48:20 - 00:36:00:10
Lauren
Okay. But that's a fair thing to do. Have you seen Kaiser Frankie. They talk about, like, why you should never have your mouth open when a plane flies over you. Yeah. And in the show, they said. Because. Have you ever had a bunch of feces fall in your face?
00:36:00:15 - 00:36:18:21
Oren
Oh, my God, I never heard that. But, so then she goes, you know, why did you write on the baby? And now? Well, you know, I work out with this guy, and he's a Navy. It's like entourage, you know, the explanations that they would give to, you know, an entourage. Well, because I work out with the Navy Seal, and he said that they switch the baby out, and she's like, why not switch babies?
00:36:18:21 - 00:36:57:12
Oren
Anyway, all of this ties into one thing you have to be. You have to love that account. You have to lean into the account. You have to want the account if the admired account. But you have to hold the account accountable for certain behaviors. What you can do is you can convince them of the features and the benefit and the value proposition and your integrity and your expertise and the track record of your company, and that your information is better than the other person's information and, and that but you cannot teach them behaviors that will make it profitable.
00:36:57:12 - 00:37:25:06
Oren
We sell either a service or a product that comes with the service, or we sell equity. If you are raising money and you take a bad investor with core values that don't align with your own, you will live with the consequences of that decision for the rest of your life. It's so destructive. And I'm sure you know, Ralph, in your, you know, sales effort in your company taking a bad customer loses more money than it was ever worth in the first place from a distraction from a raw dollars, a point from the frustration of the teams.
00:37:25:12 - 00:37:46:22
Oren
So accountability. It has a twin benefit one. It stops you from taking up a money losing or problematic customer. And number two, it gives you the non neediness you're looking for. This is the amazing thing. There's no risk to being non needy because you're just saying I have a boundary which I do not go beyond.
00:37:46:22 - 00:37:50:09
Ralph
Which makes you more desirable, which is the counterintuitive part of it which.
00:37:50:09 - 00:38:18:21
Oren
Makes you more desirable and how you do it. Now, you don't want people leaving this call and going, you know, hey, I have boundaries. I don't go beyond, let me explain them to you. The boundaries come in conversations as you go along. But here, when you see something goofy in the behaviors of the client, if you have ironed out your own belief system, your own values, your own boundary, you just call it out and you go, why are you saying that is super goofy?
00:38:18:23 - 00:38:30:21
Oren
It is a there's a yellow flag, pink flag, red flag, you know, whatever you want to call it. Sometimes you would just say thing, I know you want to discount or whatever, but let's use our time together in a way that makes sense. Stop saying that.
00:38:30:21 - 00:38:50:00
Ralph
Merging that concept with. So after reading anything so many different times are just you listening to it once a year for so many years, and then all of a sudden I realize, oh my God, he's got this other book. Which is to your point, it's like you've got two books and I'm like, do I really want to read the other one?
00:38:50:04 - 00:39:09:16
Ralph
Because I've already kind of gotten the other one down, and then all of a sudden like, geez, you know, just from the intro, I'm like getting people to believe that they're making the decision on their own terms. Like, yeah, that makes sense to how do you merge those two worlds together in an effective way?
00:39:09:22 - 00:39:25:00
Oren
I, I think about it like this. And maybe we can, you know, we can start to, you know, happy to do this again. You know, maybe we start to do, you know, wind down and we can pick up some tactics or you can bring I had a podcast with the guy who has a book called Exactly What to Say.
00:39:25:01 - 00:39:29:02
Oren
Phil Jones, really nice guy. Have you familiar with the book?
00:39:29:02 - 00:39:31:07
Lauren
No, but I'm familiar with saying I know. Exactly.
00:39:31:07 - 00:39:49:04
Oren
Okay, so so I have on the podcast and I go, I go, yeah, I go, Phil, let's. Okay, so let's sell something to each other, like, let's just invent something, right? This is like a, you know, I forgot what it was, but like, like, it's just adventure. So invent a software park right now, right? And then you'll sell it to me using exactly what you say.
00:39:49:04 - 00:40:02:22
Oren
He's like. Well, you know, I kind of like I had a have to think about it. You don't have to understand the product and think about the features and benefit. I'm like, no, we're just gonna invent it now. Like, okay, we'll come up with the features, benefits, value proposition. You sell it to me, right? And he's like, yeah, but I didn't have time to really, you know, think about it.
00:40:02:23 - 00:40:05:07
Oren
And you know what the positioning would be.
00:40:05:09 - 00:40:06:10
Lauren
You wrote a book.
00:40:06:10 - 00:40:08:21
Oren
Called Exactly What You Say.
00:40:08:23 - 00:40:12:13
Lauren
What do you do? How dare you?
00:40:12:15 - 00:40:14:08
Ralph
How dare you not know exactly?
00:40:14:13 - 00:40:17:22
Oren
Like you know a blueprint and then write it out. All right.
00:40:18:00 - 00:40:20:02
Lauren
Did you see the asterisks? Most of the.
00:40:20:02 - 00:40:22:21
Ralph
Time. Most of the time, yeah. Unless I'm asked by Warner Clef.
00:40:22:23 - 00:40:42:16
Oren
After thinking for a while and waiting for AI to be invented. All right, so so I think I would, you know, we'd love to do again and let's bring situation and do some role playing and go through it. But here's what I want to say. Pitch anything to me is like, when people read it and I talk to them and their reaction to, I mean, it's taught as a standard in every fortune 500 company.
00:40:42:18 - 00:41:05:14
Oren
If you go pitch a deal in Silicon Valley using the anything method, they will go, oh, that's an orange cliff pitch. It is a standard. And and so I understand what people go through when they get first exposure to pitch anything. And it's like you go to your closet and you like to get a sweater and you're like looking in the back of and you're like what's that knob.
00:41:05:16 - 00:41:10:13
Oren
Right. Yeah. And you pull on the knob and a door open, you're like, there's fucking Narnia back there.
00:41:10:14 - 00:41:12:12
Lauren
It's like, all right, Tiger, my.
00:41:12:12 - 00:41:37:16
Oren
Serve like witches and lions. It's peak. And you're like, you go in, in this world and it's magic. And you can suddenly see with anything the magic that exists in human relationships. When it comes down to buying and selling that pigeon flip the script is how to survive in that world. Exactly what to say. Flip the script as full of things you can say.
00:41:37:18 - 00:41:51:18
Oren
How do you, once you've entered Narnia? How do you survive when and own a kingdom in the land of Narnia and and win the game? And that's how I think of the interplay of those two books.
00:41:51:20 - 00:42:15:12
Ralph
I don't know, let's say. I mean, I guess I'm at a loss for words the first time in 700 some odd shows, but this has been amazing because first off, these two books together, if you're a marketer and you don't know how to sell, or you don't know how to sell, and you think you know how to sell these books like open up a whole other realm of not even like it's persuasion, but it's human psychology, and it's all the different techniques.
00:42:15:12 - 00:42:33:03
Ralph
There's so many different techniques. We didn't even talk about here on today's show, but I highly recommend anyone listening to this show to get both of your books. Get them on audible, listen to them over and over again, especially if you're doing any sort of selling or convincing or persuading, because we all are, all the time. Where's the best place for people to connect with you?
00:42:33:05 - 00:42:53:03
Oren
If you go to Oren A.com, put your name in, but I send a newsletter out and what I you know, in today's world, the information is free. I don't sell anything and I have a course. I just give it all, try and help people. It brings, you know, zig zag or, you know, give as much as you can and whatever you need will come, whatever.
00:42:53:06 - 00:43:00:10
Oren
If you really love something, let it go and it will fly. Just open a fortune cookie and whatever is in there. But if.
00:43:00:12 - 00:43:05:03
Lauren
You're going from Marie Kondo to Chinese fortune cookies, like let it go, crack it, it's to.
00:43:05:03 - 00:43:18:13
Oren
Hard left and sell. Of course, I don't need any money from you. I don't need any money at all. What I try and do is help salespeople and marketers understand what give you a window into what we're doing at scale. That's actually working.
00:43:18:15 - 00:43:21:00
Ralph
So orange clef.com. Best place to.
00:43:21:00 - 00:43:22:21
Lauren
Go Claffey.
00:43:22:23 - 00:43:39:07
Ralph
Class F. We'll leave links to the show notes over Professor trevor.com. Of course. And that way you can connect with Warren. It's been awesome having you on here. And I think we could have talked like for another 2 or 3 shows, which, by the way, if you're willing to get back, let's do it again. Here we go.
00:43:39:09 - 00:43:41:18
Lauren
Oh we should do it in person or so. Cool. All right.
00:43:41:18 - 00:43:44:22
Oren
Lauren, I will I'll see you tomorrow. Yeah. No.
00:43:45:00 - 00:44:08:07
Ralph
Lauren's going to swing by Lauren's office. That's fantastic. All right, well, thank you so much for coming on. I'm saying thank you here because I am actually thanking you for coming out. I know it's sort of. We put this together super quick. Really appreciate, all of the knowledge bombs that you dropped here today. So, like I said, all the links, all the resources mentioned here are in the show notes over perpetual traffics.
00:44:08:09 - 00:44:14:08
Ralph
Oh, so on behalf of my amazing co-host, Lauren E Petrillo, thank you.
00:44:14:10 - 00:44:15:08
Lauren
So.
00:44:15:10 - 00:44:29:14
Ralph
Sorry for messing up there at the end. Now I'm just kidding. Until next show. See you.
