The easy shortcuts in digital marketing, like quick flips, four-hour workweeks, and AI-generated funnels, are gone! Former Perpetual Traffic co-host and Google Ads powerhouse Kasim Aslam joins us today to explore why the old playbook no longer works and why the future belongs to those willing to do the hard, unscalable work.
Kasim shares the thesis that changed how he approaches starting and scaling a business. From his incubator of 17 businesses to investing in industries most people overlook, Kasim’s perspective will reframe how you think about scaling in the AI-driven landscape.
If you want to learn how to build smarter, stronger businesses in a world where automation alone won’t save you, this one is for you!
In This Episode:
00:00 Introduction
02:46 Kasim’s journey post-Perpetual Traffic
06:39 The cost of traffic in digital marketing
11:01 Scaling and measuring profitability: “diminishing returns” is not a stop sign
17:13 Accounting for incalculable gains as you scale
19:48 The death of quick flip businesses
25:05 Leveraging hard work and human connection
29:01 Apple’s example of goodwill and brand loyalty
36:17 How to sign up for the upcoming growth hacking conference
Mentioned In the Episode:
Previous episode with Kasim on the law of inverse profitability: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/why-the-law-of-inverse-profitability-is-the-1-way/id1022441491?i=1000650815702
Sign up for the Growth Hacking conference with Kasim:
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https://open.spotify.com/show/59lhtIWHw1XXsRmT5HBAuK
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Visit our website: https://perpetualtraffic.com/
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Connect with Kasim Aslam:
- Website – https://kasimaslam.com/
- LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/kasimaslam/
- Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/kasimaslam/
Connect with Ralph Burns:
- LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/ralphburns
- Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/ralphhburns/
- Hire Tier11 – https://www.tiereleven.com/apply-now
Connect with Lauren Petrullo:
- Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/laurenepetrullo/
- LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurenpetrullo
- Consult Mongoose Media – https://mongoosemedia.us/
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READ THE TRANSCRIPT:
Episode 730: Your Digital Marketing Autopsy: Surviving the AI Era with Kasim Aslam
00:00:00:00 – 00:00:16:18
Kasim
The future of all business, all entrepreneurial endeavors isn’t going to be tech based. Tech became ubiquitous. ChatGPT is free for everybody listening. That has the Tim Ferriss four hour workweek dream. It’s gone. All the things that we used to be able to do to build a business and flip it just got automated.
00:00:16:19 – 00:00:22:23
Ralph
Marketing is obviously as integral to any startup, any new business. How are you going to actually get it off the ground?
00:00:22:23 – 00:00:26:13
Kasim
I built the number one ranked Google Ads agency in the world, and what I found was.
00:00:29:00 – 00:00:39:12
Ralph
Hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic Podcast. This is your host, Ralph Burns, founder and CEO of tier 11, alongside my amazing co-host.
00:00:39:18 – 00:00:44:14
Lauren
Lauren E Petrillo, founder of Mongoose Media. Yeah, they’re going to.
00:00:44:16 – 00:01:15:13
Ralph
Dude, I hesitated there because I didn’t know we hesitated there. I did. I know, well, you’re the now co-host. Let me make sure you understand this. So you’re the present co-host. The old as in a previous, not old, because he’s still the, previous co-host of Perpetual Traffic is on today’s show. That’s how this works. So, ladies and gentlemen, costume lovers from all around the world.
00:01:15:15 – 00:01:40:15
Ralph
Chasm is back on perpetual traffic. Welcome back to, you know, a three year journey that, as we said on the prerecorded, you’ll. You’ll never get that time back completely lost. But we’re glad to have you back here on the show. Hopefully you’re not suffering from PTSD. So notice how I put that one in there. So anyway, I’m jokes.
00:01:40:16 – 00:01:42:13
Ralph
Welcome back, Kazim Aslam.
00:01:42:15 – 00:01:47:14
Kasim
I’m so glad to be here. I love you both, and I’m excited to chat today. Hello, listeners.
00:01:47:16 – 00:02:10:08
Ralph
Hello. Hello. They’re going to be like, what? Well, listening to an old episode. What’s going on here? So you guys were both the. It’s kind of cool because this is sort of a full circle moment for me because you’re coming back on Cast Some as a former co-host, Lauren is now the co-host, but you both started as guests, and so you’re really kind of coming back on as a guest.
00:02:10:08 – 00:02:32:16
Ralph
So it’s a very weird kind of amalgamation of all kinds of different titles and titles. I guess I’m the only constant with this whole thing, whether or not that’s a good thing or a bad thing. Let the audience determine that. But, in that vein, we’re going to be talking about some forward thinking ideas that I know has been on your mind.
00:02:32:16 – 00:02:52:18
Ralph
Chasm is certainly been on my mind, and I know it’s been on your mind, Lauren, of like, what is coming in this digital marketing landscape. And I actually thought, like, you had kind of retired from the digital marketing worlds custom like whatever. I think before we get into today’s show, which is really is all about sort of the future of digital marketing and also the autopsy of digital marketing.
00:02:52:20 – 00:02:56:10
Ralph
Tell folks what you’ve been doing since you left perpetual Traffic.
00:02:56:12 – 00:03:08:00
Kasim
Yeah, I, I built businesses, so I started an incubator. It’s funny because I don’t really know what an incubator is. I’ve never been to a real incubator, a red light and the city of San Francisco. I can’t spell Y Combinator.
00:03:08:06 – 00:03:12:03
Ralph
I think I saw one that was an elementary school with, like, little chicks.
00:03:12:05 – 00:03:15:01
Kasim
Yeah, that’s that’s what I said. I started it a chicken.
00:03:15:03 – 00:03:15:12
Lauren
Farm.
00:03:15:12 – 00:03:19:05
Kasim
But, I could go a couple of ways. Pause for Lauren’s joke.
00:03:19:07 – 00:03:22:17
Ralph
Pause for joke. Chick. Chick joke. She missed it.
00:03:22:19 – 00:03:23:10
Kasim
She missed it.
00:03:23:14 – 00:03:25:11
Lauren
That’s the cue. I was like, there could have been.
00:03:25:11 – 00:03:27:00
Kasim
A no no.
00:03:27:02 – 00:03:34:18
Lauren
That’s like TV, like, chick incubator. If this are very. Maybe that would make more sense. Kidding. Of course.
00:03:34:20 – 00:03:56:16
Kasim
Yeah, that was a good joke. Let’s go. Shout out to Perry Belcher. So I’ve built a collection of things that I’m actually really proud of. I built a staffing agency I own Eoco. We’re cracking the code on answer engines. I own Qualcomm with Joe Polish Syndication Scams, a real estate platform. So I did what horror mosey did just poorly and with much, much less money.
00:03:56:18 – 00:04:08:09
Kasim
I, I took my my little exit nugget, and I, I’m like, I’m going to go do a bunch of different things. And so, I’ve got a small portfolio of 17 businesses at the moment, and I’ll run.
00:04:08:11 – 00:04:11:17
Lauren
My portfolio of 17 businesses. Pause.
00:04:11:17 – 00:04:28:21
Kasim
Well, so small in terms of gross revenue, right. Like I’m not doing 100 million a year gross profit, but they’re all they’re all profitable. You know, they’re not like, I don’t own 17 domain names that I call businesses. I’ve got sectoral. And I’m just I’m trying to crack the code. I really like that I’m good at somebody said I’m good at having babies.
00:04:28:21 – 00:04:46:20
Kasim
I’m not good at raising them. I know, I know for a fact if I could focus on one business, that’s that’s the path to, like, billions of dollars. And I really like starting new things. So just let myself be the the infant that I am. And I put myself in a position where I get to do that.
00:04:46:20 – 00:05:00:23
Kasim
And that’s it’s been so much fun. I just get to like, you know, I’m surrounded by a bunch of people. We meet every Friday for my incubator. We talk about like, what’s on the horizon, and then I’m doing a bunch of random, like, I’m buying a septic company because I’m going to have the largest septic company in the American Southwest.
00:05:00:23 – 00:05:03:17
Kasim
Just watch. Would you just like, kind of.
00:05:03:17 – 00:05:05:04
Lauren
See him, the captain of ships.
00:05:05:04 – 00:05:13:14
Kasim
Business models? Yeah. Well, I was talking about a phenomenal business model that’s massively antiquated. Yeah, that’s that’s. I’m pretty excited about it.
00:05:13:14 – 00:05:23:02
Ralph
Ripe for consolidation. I remember having that conversation with Perry Belzer in the pool in Cancun, as I recall. And I was. Yeah, you know what? He’s actually. Anyway.
00:05:23:04 – 00:05:30:08
Lauren
Very as a former containment expert, I very much approve of the septic tank investment.
00:05:30:10 – 00:05:32:18
Kasim
Is that just you saying you’re constipated or.
00:05:32:20 – 00:05:48:07
Lauren
No, I have some diaper company for babies and some soup. Diapers don’t contain urine because the child will sink. They just contain poop. So I was like, I dubbed myself a poop containment expert, but now I can pass this on to you as soon as.
00:05:48:07 – 00:05:49:02
Ralph
You and someone who.
00:05:49:02 – 00:05:50:22
Lauren
Acquired or read.
00:05:51:00 – 00:06:16:11
Ralph
Through. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, I, I, I feel, you know, that that industry is akin to my experience because I wade through just pools of crap twice a week doing the show. So anyway, so today is not going to be one of those days. It’s going to be absolute gold. Yeah. Now that we know what you’ve been doing with your life and your quasi retirement, but it’s almost like you’re away from digital marketing, but you’re still kind of in it.
00:06:16:13 – 00:06:32:07
Ralph
Let me hear you say, like, I’m going to retire from digital. I’m like, I’m sick of this agency stuff. But you’re still kind of back in it, really. Because marketing is obviously is integral to any startup, any new business. How are you going to actually get it off the ground? How are you going to get your message in front of people and ultimately sell your stuff?
00:06:32:09 – 00:06:33:12
Kasim
Can I give you my thesis?
00:06:33:12 – 00:06:35:18
Ralph
By all means. That’s why you’re on the show.
00:06:35:20 – 00:06:50:14
Kasim
I’m going to I’m lobbing a grenade, but I actually think it’s a good one. Here’s the experience I had for it. For anybody who’s listening that doesn’t know me, I built the number one rank Google ads agency in the world. When I sold, I had $100 million and that’s been under management. I got to see thousands of business models, thousands of business models.
00:06:50:16 – 00:07:20:10
Kasim
And what I found was as often as not traffic cost more than cost of goods, cost of service, fulfillment, opex, sometimes combined, which means e-commerce is easy to pick on because it’s the most it’s the most, visible of all business models, I think, in terms of the numbers. And so for e-commerce businesses, I would watch as an e-comm business would spend more money on traffic than they would spend on the cost of the materials they were selling, the cost of fulfillment, those materials, the cost of the customer service, their operating expenses.
00:07:20:14 – 00:07:49:13
Kasim
Combined traffic would cost more than all that. Traffic would almost always be more than their net profit. So you’re paying meta $20 for the thing you’re making $19 on or less, which means you work for meta, or you work for Google, or you work for Amazon. You work for the traffic store. So my thesis in building these businesses, and I’m not telling you this is a good thesis for everybody, by the way, I’m in the luxury position of starting fresh from how am I going to capture the opportunity.
00:07:49:15 – 00:08:06:11
Kasim
But my thesis is I will not start a business if I don’t know where the traffic’s coming from first. And so I look for preexisting pools of traffic that are being underserved or not served at all. So I don’t care about the idea. Everybody, everybody in business wants the next big idea. They’re like, oh, we’ve got the next big mousetrap, the next big thing.
00:08:06:11 – 00:08:23:17
Kasim
We crack this code, I don’t care. That means you have to go create a new market. You’re not an entrepreneur. You’re an inventor. I want a pool of people being massively underserved. Yeah, and now I can show up and just look like an absolute total rock star. So that’s my business building thesis. And so far, it’s, you know, it’s.
00:08:23:17 – 00:08:48:15
Ralph
Working out pretty well. That makes a lot of sense to me, actually. And we talked about this a couple of shows back learn actually about like what we would do if we had to start all over. And I always start with the question whether it’s a business. And we used an example of a business who were sort of assisting myself in my social media marketing and email person on staff here at year 11 is taking a business from literally like maybe five figures a month in sales.
00:08:48:15 – 00:08:58:16
Ralph
I’m not exactly sure exactly where they stand. Set that aside. But it’s like the operative question is what’s working right now? And there’s usually something that’s working.
00:08:58:16 – 00:09:12:03
Ralph
If you have a business where somebody is actually buying your stuff, right, that’s proof of concept that what you actually have the world wants, maybe not the entire world, but a subset of people want it.
00:09:12:05 – 00:09:28:23
Ralph
And I find the most logical and quite honestly simple and simplistic question is, what are you doing right right now? And if we can figure that out, there’s usually something and it’s like, just do more of that.
00:09:28:23 – 00:09:38:13
Ralph
Yeah. And most business owners don’t do that and I don’t know why. And we’ve used lots of examples of how we’ve been able to do that here on the show.
00:09:38:19 – 00:09:39:06
Ralph
But
00:09:39:06 – 00:09:53:01
Ralph
your thesis is very much in alignment with like path of least resistance. Hey, if YouTube ads are working for you right now, hey, you know, you have an influencer who was doing something for you and you made 15 sales and you’re like, why are you not doing that anymore? Like,
00:09:53:01 – 00:09:54:18
Ralph
oh no, I’m over on my social media.
00:09:54:18 – 00:10:09:18
Ralph
No, because that’s important. Somebody said the tick tock was important and now I have to figure out meta ads. I’m like, wait a second, you’ve got this thing over here that actually worked. Why don’t you just go do more of that, double down on that thing? People don’t want that because they want the shiny object. They want the new thing they want.
00:10:09:18 – 00:10:15:05
Ralph
Oh my God. I heard on perpetual traffic, I is now the thing I need to bring in ChatGPT. I need to build a chat bot.
00:10:15:05 – 00:10:26:19
Ralph
But no, you have this one thing that’s working, that’s driving a modicum of business that if you leverage it, you can then turn it into a larger business, which means increased influence and hopefully scale.
00:10:26:21 – 00:10:30:01
Ralph
Same general theory or different. Yeah. What are your thoughts.
00:10:30:02 – 00:10:39:15
Kasim
So here’s what I think people just to first of all like double click on everything you just said. Absolutely agree. This is the way I visualize it is if you think of any bell curve.
00:10:39:20 – 00:10:42:13
Ralph
I miss your old expressions by the way. Period full.
00:10:42:13 – 00:10:43:04
Lauren
Second any.
00:10:43:04 – 00:10:47:11
Ralph
Started you as of you double click double click.
00:10:47:13 – 00:10:50:01
Kasim
I’m bringing them all back. Man, this is nostalgia episode.
00:10:50:01 – 00:10:57:18
Ralph
I know. By the way, if you say that on Siri, it actually puts the period period, then full stop after. So it’s like it doesn’t really work on Siri, but I don’t know.
00:10:57:18 – 00:11:16:17
Kasim
That’s that’s why I can’t be replaced by I think if you think about any bell curve, here’s what people do. And again, because I spent so much of other people’s money, I saw this happen. The bell curve, the apex of the bell curve is in the center. And so what people will do is they’ll build advertising mechanisms until they reach the apex of return.
00:11:16:17 – 00:11:32:08
Kasim
So I’m building an advertising mechanism, and I put a dollar in and I get $3 out, and then I get $5 out. Then I get $10 out. And let’s say that’s the apex, right? So like that’s the most the highest the that that ad campaign is going to perform. And then as I spend more and more and more and more, ten drops to nine drops to eight.
00:11:32:08 – 00:11:35:22
Kasim
And what they do is they back up because it’s like, oh, we’re losing efficiency.
00:11:36:02 – 00:11:37:05
Ralph
I want the days of ten.
00:11:37:05 – 00:12:01:15
Kasim
Yeah. So what I back up from, as you say something yesterday that was absolutely brilliant. He goes diminishing returns are still returns. So here’s what they’re doing is if you picture a bell curve in your mind, they’re they’re building the first half and then they’re stopping at the apex when there’s a whole second half, which is literally by definition, by mathematical definition, double.
00:12:01:17 – 00:12:25:01
Kasim
It’s, it’s you have the you’ve you’ve identified the ability to double your business just doing more of what you’re doing, but you’re not willing to do it because it’s a diminished return. Still, a return, but a diminished return. And those diminished returns are the things that, interestingly, buy you the runway and the additional cash flow in order to pad the coffers, have more money, invest, grow, iterate.
00:12:25:03 – 00:12:43:19
Kasim
So we get really romantic about things like margin. Yeah, I’m like, oh, I’m at 40% margin. If I spend this way, I’m going to drop this 30% margin. And it’s like, oh, wait a minute, you mean you’re going to spend money and make more money do that, you know what I mean? And like you’re saying, Ralph, do doing all the way until you’re no longer make and then go figure out the new thing.
00:12:44:00 – 00:12:53:10
Kasim
The other thing that people do is they realize, like, oh, in meta, I’m getting a 1 to 10 return. So then they go to Google and they try to get their 1 to 10 return. And it’s like, dude, they’re two different things.
00:12:53:10 – 00:12:54:06
Ralph
Slightly different thing.
00:12:54:07 – 00:13:17:08
Kasim
They’re two entirely different mechanisms. So meta may have a better return, but maybe Google has more longevity or more predictability or, you know, a easier off on lever. Who knows what. Right? So every mechanism one needs to be seen all the way through to the end of the bell curve. Two needs to be treated as though it’s unique because massive surprise it is.
00:13:17:10 – 00:13:25:10
Kasim
And it’s not just unique to the mechanism, it’s unique to the business. So I you know, I have a professional services business that does really, really.
00:13:25:10 – 00:13:25:22
Ralph
Really.
00:13:25:22 – 00:13:44:18
Kasim
Really well with, paid partnerships with influencers. But then I have a call it a pseudo SAS business that looks the same from the outside looking in, but fails miserably with that same mechanism. And so just because you’re, you know, something works with one offer doesn’t mean it’s going to work with the other. Like you have to kind of go back to the drawing board each individual time.
00:13:44:23 – 00:14:01:15
Kasim
And it’s so funny to see entrepreneurs turn into automatons. Dude. Yeah, and it happens with success, not failure. It’s the successful entrepreneurs that hit these ceilings because they have these weird commitments to things like arbitrary margins or the way that things have been done right.
00:14:01:17 – 00:14:21:07
Ralph
I, I completely agree. There’s an example we’ve used here before, and it’s probably apocryphal, but the point is, is that we had a customer that was making a 40% net on a million revenue like they’re making. All right. I’m getting a 40% margin, like I’m getting a ten x. This is an old example, let’s say, because we were using Roas, not Mirr, which we’ll talk about here on today’s show.
00:14:21:07 – 00:14:41:13
Ralph
That’s like, all right, so let’s do the math. You’re making 400 K. You know, after everything at net net off a million. It’s like yeah that’s great. 40% like well all right let’s start to scale. And so all of a sudden 40% start going down to 3938, 373635. And he’s like wait a second. Hold on. When I got to 35, it’s like we’re at 1.5 now.
00:14:41:13 – 00:14:58:23
Ralph
He’s like about 35. It’s not 40%. I’m like, well we could scale you to 5 million at a 20% net. You have your net. And what do we have left over? We have $1 million. We’ve doubled, if not 120 million.
00:14:58:23 – 00:15:00:21
Kasim
Any more than 400,000 is.
00:15:00:21 – 00:15:01:10
Ralph
More.
00:15:01:10 – 00:15:06:13
Lauren
Than 400 grand. So that’s going to have a stronger exit that you’ve built into equity.
00:15:06:15 – 00:15:09:20
Kasim
That’s such a powerful point. It’s such an awful point.
00:15:09:20 – 00:15:26:15
Ralph
So I refer to this as the law of inverse profitability. And we see it everywhere. We’ve got a whole video series. I’ll leave links in the show notes on it because this is really, really important. And this is this is part of the reason, like maybe a prelude to what will really be talking about here today is like just mindset of businesses.
00:15:26:17 – 00:15:46:00
Ralph
Double down on the stuff that’s working. First off and take a step back. That’s why going to conferences and hanging out with other people, talking to other entrepreneurs is so important. Secondly, do the math in your head because you can’t expect, like I remember the days when we were making 40% net at tier 11. Those days are gone.
00:15:46:04 – 00:16:05:16
Ralph
Sorry, they’re never coming back like my CFO thinks they will at some point, but they probably won’t in our industry. And the way that things are today, I’m okay with that. But I do want to be profitable. But $1 million business at 40% net and a $10 million business at 20% net, I have, you know, let’s do that math.
00:16:05:21 – 00:16:24:08
Ralph
That’s practically quadrupling your net profitability. And you’re still at a much lower margin. But business owners always want to long for those days of two years ago, I was getting X amount of return on my Facebook ads, and now I’m not. Well, that’s over it. We live in today. Get over it.
00:16:24:13 – 00:16:40:19
Lauren
And the thing is, you said something about meeting people. Sorry, guys, I’m coming up. But like when Ravi’s talking about meeting people in person at conferences and talking to the people like you were like, go to the conferences are the doers. They think, what are the traps that people are falling into? Where they’re like, what you’re talking about is that apex.
00:16:40:19 – 00:17:12:00
Lauren
And then when you hit the curve, is there listening to TikTok or seeing something on YouTube of someone who’s making more money from the video than from actually doing the things and I hear all the time, well, I should switch and go to Google because this TikToker said it works, or because this video did, and they have 60s to determine if the numbers that they provided are legit, while they’re seeing just the tip of the iceberg of the real story, because someone who can make $1 million on a launch could have spent $1.2 million behind the scenes, and they netted no money.
00:17:12:00 – 00:17:12:23
Lauren
But that doesn’t show up.
00:17:12:23 – 00:17:13:21
Kasim
Yeah, it’s well, it’s
00:17:13:21 – 00:17:37:07
Kasim
all these idiots running around saying, Hermosa, you made $105 million in a day. No, he did not. He made $105 million in seven years. Yeah. It was. He cashed in on the most potent repository of brand equity I’ve ever seen, built by any human in in the digital sphere. He gave and he gave and he gave and he gave, and he did it 50 times a day for seven years.
00:17:37:09 – 00:17:58:15
Kasim
And then seven years in seven years. He said, hey, I have this thing. And then and then people gave back. And that was the point that you were making earlier, Lauren, that I don’t think Ralph and I paid enough credence to, which is as you’re scaling up and you’re losing, let’s say, net profitability, you’re also gaining market share, customers, diversification of client base, brand authority, visibility.
00:17:58:19 – 00:18:06:22
Kasim
And these are things that are and I’m going to use a word that is often dismissed. But I’d like people to kind of just pay attention to it. They’re in calculable
00:18:06:22 – 00:18:33:19
Kasim
in their value. They’re incalculable in their value, meaning you actually cannot calculate the value of those things. And you know that when the shit hits the fan, but you still have a really strong reputation, or you still have clients that are standing behind you and beside you in ways that aren’t necessarily even logical, or you still have referral partners sending things your way, like there are things that you can’t put on a spreadsheet that you can’t factor into your funnel, that you can’t optimize.
00:18:33:21 – 00:18:50:19
Kasim
They’re incalculable in their value, and business owners don’t do enough to really lean into those incalculable things because they’re incalculable. So we we almost pretend like they don’t exist. We treat goodwill like it doesn’t exist. Right? It’s maybe one of the most important economic drivers.
00:18:50:21 – 00:18:52:01
Lauren
But not on the best stretch.
00:18:52:01 – 00:19:09:20
Kasim
In what is not. How can you how can you calculate goodwill? But man, when somebody there a couple of brands where it just does not matter to me what it costs, how long it takes, if they’re under, if they make a mistake. USA is a really good example. I’ve been a USA customer since I was my mom’s whole family’s military, so we got to we got to.
00:19:09:21 – 00:19:29:03
Kasim
I didn’t serve, but I got to be in this umbrella because USA is only for people that have been in the military and it’s it’s the most amazing company I’ve ever been exposed to. They’re more expensive by far, incidentally, but I have all my insurance is under USAA, and I would kill and die to continue to stay there, regardless of costs.
00:19:29:08 – 00:19:48:02
Kasim
That’s an incalculable value to USAA, but they’ve earned that from me, and I just don’t feel like we’re I don’t know why that conversation is. It had more like there’s ways to build businesses and brands that just aren’t is sterile, you know, like and that that really create something impossible to fight against.
00:19:48:05 – 00:20:09:00
Lauren
Is possible people because we have like these legacy brands. So USAA has been around for decades. And we think of like the JPMorgan banks and like all of these like generational companies where I feel like in the last 20 years, it’s how might we build a company, flip it and sell it, like in this like flip model? It’s just such a low commitment to the long term value of a company.
00:20:09:04 – 00:20:21:10
Lauren
And at least in the U.S., we don’t have this whole bid to pass on our companies to our children. Both of you have kids. Do either of you expect your companies to be inherited and run by the next generation of your family?
00:20:21:14 – 00:20:39:23
Kasim
I don’t expect my children to work. I don’t think my children are eight and ten. I think when my children are of working age, which let’s say is 25 ish, I think the productive endeavor will have been commoditized to a degree that makes that type of vocational emphasis and focus superfluous to the human endeavor. Navarro Robert Kohn said something to the effect.
00:20:39:23 – 00:21:02:21
Kasim
I’m going to paraphrase poorly, but I think I’ll get it, he said. If you want to be happy, find something worth doing for the sake of itself. And I think that’s what we’re all going to have to do, you know, in 20 years, let’s say, but you also another really good point. This flip mentality we’ve gotten into, which I’m guilty of and maybe a proponent of, and maybe in a small way, helped to proliferate all the things that we used to be able to do to build a business and flip it just got automated.
00:21:02:22 – 00:21:19:20
Kasim
All of this surface level bullshit, all of the I’m going to spin up a landing page automated, I’m going to spin up some ads automated, I’m going to spin up a funnel, I’m going to spin up automation, I’m going to spin up email nurture. All of that is automated. So everything that we used to do, they could provide, they could eke out a little bit of money and a little bit of EBITA.
00:21:19:21 – 00:21:36:23
Kasim
Just got automated, I did it. That’s dead. That’s the autopsy. It’s dead. All of the crap, all of the garbage, all of the worthless. I’m I won’t drop a name, but I’m one of those influencers going to sell you a weekend course and teach you how to make billions of dollars as I shoot you. Video my San Diego beach house in front of a Ferrari.
00:21:37:01 – 00:21:51:16
Kasim
That’s all dead. And it’s not dead because it’s worthless. It’s dead because it’s ubiquitous. It’s still a value to have a landing page, to have automation, to have follow up. But I can just prompt it now, my son, my ten year old son, I bought my boy’s Chromebooks and I told him, you can only use these for two reasons.
00:21:51:19 – 00:22:09:00
Kasim
One, to learn AI, two to build your brand. And I come back to my ten year old son, ask ChatGPT, how do I code a video game? And within about two hours he’d use ChatGPT and Bolt in order to create the old Oregon Trail for shooter game. It blew my mind. My son, I swear to God, my my ten year old can do that.
00:22:09:02 – 00:22:30:13
Kasim
You want to tell me he can’t build an automation, build a funnel, build a follow up? All that’s gone. Which means the quick flip business is gone. The only thing left are the things machine can’t do if you want it. The word scalable should be a curse word. Do what doesn’t scale. Do the thing that doesn’t allow AI to just take it and run with it.
00:22:30:13 – 00:22:55:15
Kasim
Find the unpaved roads like do the things. Talk to people. Answer your phones. Reach out to customers. Have customer success representatives like do the things that don’t scale. And that’s how you build a business of incalculable value. The future of oh, not just marketing the future of all business, all entrepreneurial endeavors isn’t going to be tech based. Tech became ubiquitous, not worthless.
00:22:55:15 – 00:23:14:02
Kasim
Ubiquitous AI ChatGPT is free. It’s free. Cloud is free. Like all these things are free. I can build whole business. I can, and I have. If you’ve studied vibe coding at all, I watch my business partner Vaughn create things that I swear to God would be about $200,000 for an MVP. He does it in a couple of hours.
00:23:14:04 – 00:23:33:12
Kasim
He created a matching tool for our agency. He’s he’s created these amazing lead magnets. He created a business valuation tool, and he does it in a couple of hours. It’s the death of SAS, all things that can be automated or dead. That doesn’t mean that the productive endeavor is that it means that you have to find the things that aren’t automatable, but it’s the incalculable value, right?
00:23:33:12 – 00:23:57:01
Kasim
It’s like building brand loyalty and loving on people and trying to find a way to come to customers and let them know, like, hey, I’m I know, honestly, Ralph, I’ll pander here a little bit. Dude, I think that’s why you’ve weathered every fricking storm, every storm I’ve ever seen in the marketing space. Tier 11 has always found its way to kind of just stay above water because you do the things that are incalculably valuable.
00:23:57:03 – 00:24:12:16
Kasim
People always have a human being to talk to you. You’re not going to like, try to put them behind a dashboard. You’re always actually investing in the education and necessary. You invest in the infrastructure, you train your people. I know how much money you spend on continuing education like those things. That’s incalculable the value. But it’s important. It’s critical.
00:24:12:18 – 00:24:29:14
Kasim
And so for everybody listening that has the Tim Ferriss four hour workweek dream, it’s gone. It’s gone. You know, maybe there’s a couple of years of arbitrage, but stop that. Everything from here on out. I’ll tell you what it’s going to look and smell like. It’s going to look and smell a lot, like, really hard work.
00:24:29:16 – 00:24:31:11
Ralph
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:31:13 – 00:24:59:18
Kasim
It might not, you know. Well but that’s what we’ve got. That’s what we’re that’s what we have left with. And yeah, I’m leaning into it. I’m literally buying a shit shoveling company. My the thing I’m most excited about is shoveling human feces. Yeah. Around the first. This city is City of Phoenix and then the greater southwest like. And that you want to talk about the worst job with the hardest amount of work and labor and out in the sun, you know what happens to shit when it’s in the sun?
00:24:59:20 – 00:25:06:05
Kasim
You know what I mean? Like, I’m I’m going I’m getting into septic. I love that because you want to know why nobody else do it. Yeah. So what.
00:25:06:05 – 00:25:27:19
Ralph
An know. There’s. That is so funny. So we were talking yesterday actually two days ago. We have this new I’ll paraphrase a lot of this, but basically not getting into all the details, but this new process that we want for outreach, which is something that’s very, very challenging to do, there’s no real way of automating it. There’s a lot of automation tools.
00:25:27:19 – 00:25:49:22
Ralph
Everyone wants to automate it because it’s a lot of gritty work. It’s a lot of like hand crafting. As Brian Chesney once said, when he when he when he started Airbnb, the point is, is like and then we have our consultant which consults us on this. And I said, all this is just so hard. And he reiterated back to me the things that I always sort of tell my team.
00:25:49:22 – 00:26:11:15
Ralph
He’s like, dude, you know what you’re doing right now. You’re creating a moat because you’re doing all the stuff that nobody wants to do. You’re shoveling the shit that no one else wants to shovel. And if you can figure that out in your business, it’s like you’ve got an insanely competitive advantage and then you handcraft everything, you know, one shovel at a time, right?
00:26:11:16 – 00:26:31:12
Ralph
Document the process and then maybe if you’re lucky, you figure out a way to automate it. But you probably still won’t because there’s always going to be that human element in there, because it’s in our case, it’s a lot of personalization, a lot of outreach, a lot of face to face interactions between like, not a bot between two humans.
00:26:31:14 – 00:26:50:02
Ralph
And that’s really where business is. I think the competitive advantage in business still is. Yes. We’re using all the other tools. Of course we are. But it’s all that stuff that no one else wants to do. If you can figure that out in your business, it’s going to suck right now, but it’ll give you an amazing competitive advantage later.
00:26:50:02 – 00:27:09:03
Ralph
And it just it was just one more lesson. It was like I was hearing my own words coming back to me this same sort of way. I like, you know what? You’re right. And so that I relay that to my team and they’re all frustrated because they have to do all this handcrafted, you know, manual stuff. But I’m like, this is how you start it, because nobody else wants to do it because it’s hard.
00:27:09:07 – 00:27:27:08
Lauren
Was it the same as trash and do things now that others won’t, so that later you can do things that others can’t like? That’s always yeah, been true. And I would say it’s arguably more true. Like I remember flying to San Diego and the woman next to me quit her job as a nurse. She was an emergency room nurse making six figures a year.
00:27:27:10 – 00:27:43:06
Lauren
And she was just like, I’m tired, I don’t want this job anymore. And she’s getting to the real estate industry because she’s like, I can travel when the way I want to. I can live the lifestyle I see others doing on Instagram. In my head, I was like, I think real estate agents work harder than anyone. They’re always on call.
00:27:43:06 – 00:28:08:01
Lauren
But it’s this shift of people leaving jobs with like health care and in a space where some jobs don’t exist anymore. And it’s like, because I want, I deserve, or I feel entitled to an easier life. So I think right now you are both absolutely true that anyone that’s willing to put in the hard work, that’s willing to see the diminishing returns, I mean, I’m, I’m with dice right now and he was talking at Founders Board.
00:28:08:01 – 00:28:28:18
Lauren
How like the current status is that people aren’t obsessing about growth. You said scaling should be a curse word. It should be a bad word in the sense of like you’re just trying to survive. If you’re breaking even, you’re still at a chance where you’ve built a company, you’ve got people that are employed, you’re maintaining, and like you said, they’re incalculable costs that you can maybe return.
00:28:28:19 – 00:28:39:21
Lauren
You say they’re incalculable now, but in 5 or 10 years or whenever you want to actually sell or pass this on, there’s going to be some investment individual who’s going to put a calculative cost on that.
00:28:39:23 – 00:28:58:12
Ralph
Yeah, sure. He’s a great example of that. Like all you have to look because people that watch this and listen to this show are probably or most fans to a certain degree, and we talk about them a fair amount because it’s a great proxy. But it’s like he built up all that incalculable goodwill, which then he cashed in on and then cashed in on it a couple of times.
00:28:58:12 – 00:28:59:19
Kasim
He still has the goodwill.
00:29:00:01 – 00:29:01:02
Ralph
He still has the goodwill.
00:29:01:02 – 00:29:20:03
Kasim
You get to a point. Apple got here many times over. Tesla had a had a chance at it I think. But you get to a point to where you’re almost your own. I’m going to stretch this analogy so hard I’m sorry, but you’re almost free on Federal Reserve. You get to print more money now. You know, like you’re not you’re not cashing.
00:29:20:03 – 00:29:42:05
Kasim
It’s no longer a check that you cash in in the in the deposits have run dry. You’re like cashing in on the interest of your goodwill. You know, it’s this trust that continues to build. Apple users can’t won’t even fathom switching devices. It’s just kind of this this thing that’s it’s not even the beginning of a question. You know, like, and there there are other businesses that have done that.
00:29:42:05 – 00:29:53:04
Kasim
And instantly you don’t have to be Apple to do that. There are people, when I was a kid, I, I sold long distance at a call center was a horrible job. It was the equivalent of a sweatshop.
00:29:53:06 – 00:29:55:16
Ralph
I saw timeshares for a summer. So it’s.
00:29:55:17 – 00:30:16:22
Kasim
So bad. Yeah. Once when I was. When I was calling the thing that was really interesting is most long distance back in the day was sold by independent local reps. You know, I mean, in a lot of these old people that I was calling were sold by their, their independent reps, and there were people that weren’t committed to AT&T, but they were committed to their local rep.
00:30:17:00 – 00:30:32:02
Kasim
And I think we can I mean, I think we can find our way back there quick. You know, when the whole world has $1 trillion supercomputer at their fingertips, the only key differentiator between everybody else and you might be that you’re willing to come show up at my house or my office and talk to me about the damn thing.
00:30:32:02 – 00:30:35:07
Kasim
Yeah, you know, and I really think that’s worth leaning into.
00:30:35:07 – 00:31:04:08
Ralph
Absolutely. I was just on a phone like on the Apple example, just to the extreme, like because I’m an Apple person through and through, because I switched over about ten years ago and like, oh my God, you know, I will never, ever go back to a PC. So I got on the phone was like our entire podcast team, Louis as well, like everybody was on there and the Apple business team, and I’m just like, we laid out, like, what we needed, and I’m just like, tell me what I should buy.
00:31:04:10 – 00:31:22:18
Ralph
He’s like, you need to buy that. So I was like, I thought I needed to buy two of the things. But he’s like, just buy this thing. When I ended up buying it, it was the most I’ve ever spent on a laptop. Ever. But yeah, saw the receipt come through. She’s like, Ralph, is this a misprint? Yeah, yeah, just like flagged.
00:31:22:18 – 00:31:40:17
Ralph
It is fraud. She’s like, texting is just like, is this okay? Like Apple just charged you this bunch of money. It was like almost a five figure purchase. The point is, is I was like, there was no way I was going anywhere else. So I’m like, I’m Apple. I already told the guy, it’s like, this is the easiest sell you ever made.
00:31:40:17 – 00:31:45:16
Ralph
Just tell me what to buy. I just want to make sure the my team is on here to make sure we’re buying the right thing.
00:31:45:18 – 00:31:47:01
Kasim
And they know that, lo.
00:31:47:01 – 00:31:49:03
Ralph
And behold, it’s the best thing I’ve ever bought.
00:31:49:04 – 00:32:03:03
Kasim
Well, and that’s the other thing too, is, you know, I remember at my son’s, I took my boys to London and, they were fighting over the phone to take pictures and accidentally cracked the screen. They dropped the phone, cracked the screen. I’m in London. I don’t know where my Airbnb is. I have access to nothing. My phone is my only.
00:32:03:05 – 00:32:15:18
Kasim
All of our luggage is in a luggage storage place that I can’t find because I don’t have my maps, you know, over the phone, over. And I’m like, I’m like, I have these two little boys in the middle of the city. I don’t know, I have no idea. We were at the zoo, we walked to the zoo. So like, I didn’t walk back to the train station.
00:32:15:18 – 00:32:19:01
Kasim
I don’t even know what stop I started at. I don’t know how to get back on the case.
00:32:19:02 – 00:32:19:17
Ralph
It’s on your.
00:32:19:17 – 00:32:36:13
Kasim
Phone. It’s so. I like, ask around and thank God I find this Apple store and I walk in. And at first I thought I needed to buy a new phone, so I bought a phone and then they’re like, no, we can fix your phone. And then they fixed my phone and then they refunded the phone. I bought without any questions.
00:32:36:15 – 00:32:59:20
Kasim
And it and they paid for the screen because I had some care, I forgot I paid for and it all happened in like, I don’t know, do 90 minutes like me and my kids went and got, you know, crumpets and tea. And then we came back and it was, it was done and I was refunded. And there was so kind and helpful and it was like they just earned this place by doing these things that are incalculable in their value.
00:32:59:20 – 00:33:01:20
Kasim
Like that was never go anywhere.
00:33:02:02 – 00:33:23:11
Lauren
They didn’t have a dollar a pound off of you. But all of that work was done back so that you’re now sharing that story in perpetuity. And I think a lot of that’s like, we don’t do anymore. We are just so, like you said, so hyper focus on the margin that in the past, when I think of you guys, I just watched Gilded Age, like you think about all these beautiful structures where people invested into the esthetic of the building.
00:33:23:13 – 00:33:47:03
Lauren
When people invested into the Christmas party or the holiday party for their team, when people would have pension plans for the employees, like all these things that cut into the margin, but built a brand and built a loyal customer base that would see you through these different times. And I just as you’re talking about like the biggest thing I think people are doing right now that can help you wherever you are, is to meet people in person.
00:33:47:03 – 00:33:55:03
Lauren
I mean, you have these relations with the ChatGPT, right? You people are using ChatGPT for therapy and relationship stuff, but you can’t replay relationships and.
00:33:55:03 – 00:33:57:07
Kasim
Persist use incidentally.
00:33:57:09 – 00:33:57:23
Lauren
In fact, the.
00:33:57:23 – 00:34:04:06
Kasim
Harvard Business Review article, the second highest use of ChatGPT is is therapeutic is compassion.
00:34:04:06 – 00:34:10:09
Lauren
I think the first one was fact checking chasm. Awesome. No.
00:34:10:11 – 00:34:18:06
Ralph
How to pronounce. That’s so funny. Yeah. Hit that. Yeah. ChatGPT says it’s casino, by the way. Just. Yeah, I’m just telling you.
00:34:18:08 – 00:34:18:19
Kasim
Right now.
00:34:19:01 – 00:34:41:22
Ralph
I don’t know if we gave a tactical hack here by any stretch, but I believe you are holding a conference where this discussion will be delved into deeper. And I hate when people say, well, those are soft concepts, Ralph, because, you know, you guys need to do more tactics. We do plenty of tactics on this show, bucko. All right.
00:34:42:00 – 00:35:00:22
Ralph
The point is, it’s like this. I’m just saying, bucko, just in general, because I don’t know, I’m talking to some older and you’re getting older that because a cousin from Boston, let me tell you that, pal. This is how it’s like it works. Dude, you’re doing a conference somewhere. Sometime me and Lauren are going to be there on a roundtable.
00:35:00:22 – 00:35:03:18
Ralph
And, I think it’s pretty high value.
00:35:03:20 – 00:35:06:05
Kasim
If that’s not enough to, Ralph and Lauren will be there.
00:35:06:05 – 00:35:08:15
Ralph
I don’t know what is. And you’re going to be there.
00:35:08:16 – 00:35:11:03
Lauren
You don’t want to come hang out with all three of us.
00:35:11:06 – 00:35:13:10
Ralph
All three. The band.
00:35:13:12 – 00:35:21:20
Kasim
Interact together. Pictures of all three of us. We’ll have a special surprise. You got to get a selfie with me, Lauren and Ralph. The perpetual traffic trio.
00:35:21:21 – 00:35:24:03
Ralph
All right? Okay. So we’ll then.
00:35:24:04 – 00:35:25:05
Kasim
Throw that egg hunt.
00:35:25:10 – 00:35:29:20
Ralph
We’ll throw that is okay. So we’re going to be an Easter egg. How that wouldn’t surprise.
00:35:29:20 – 00:35:31:05
Kasim
Me actually that’s where are the Easter eggs.
00:35:31:05 – 00:35:32:22
Ralph
That’s the that’s that’s it. Yeah.
00:35:32:22 – 00:36:01:17
Lauren
But he has the VIP booths. For anyone that is VIP you have your highest likelihood of running into us. The last time all three of us were together was at a conference that no longer exists. So now we get to reunite in the conference that is replacing tracking conversions, tanks, Funnel Hacking Live, and I’m sure a whole dozen others that people used to go to that no longer do because they’re not investing in goodwill like those.
00:36:01:18 – 00:36:02:13
Ralph
No longer do.
00:36:02:13 – 00:36:10:22
Lauren
I don’t care, like the net margin wasn’t there and they abandoned what the goodwill that came from those conferences are. And now there’s a new one in place.
00:36:10:22 – 00:36:29:09
Ralph
Very good point. Yeah. It’s how we’re bringing this all together here today. Excellent point. Lauren Petrillo, MBA. So when is this conference? And by the way, I can throw in an extra bonus at the end of the bonus. So when is it? Tell us about it. Let’s. It’s pitch time cost.
00:36:29:10 – 00:36:44:21
Kasim
Yeah. Pitch time. So, it’s September 22nd through 24th. It’s three days. They want is focused on what we call the autopsy. We’re looking back at traditional business, the way it’s been run for the last 20 years and showing people why it doesn’t work. They choose the reconstruction. And day three is the deployment. This is going to be actionable.
00:36:45:03 – 00:36:57:21
Kasim
It’s hard core, heavy hitting. When you go to the website, you can see the thought leaders that we have. They’re truly the best and brightest in the world. You too included. And I’d love for everybody who’s listening to be there. Yeah.
00:36:57:23 – 00:37:23:14
Ralph
Well, you can sign up over at perpetual traffic. Com forward slash growth. That’s perpetual traffic.com/growth. And the extra bonus whether or not you think it’s a bonus or not. Anybody who signs up through that link will get a selfie with me. Chasm and Lauren. Oh, how about that? That’s a huge bonus. We and both all of us will sign your phone.
00:37:23:16 – 00:37:24:11
Ralph
How about that?
00:37:24:13 – 00:37:26:00
Kasim
Yeah, I’ll sign your copy.
00:37:26:00 – 00:37:28:19
Lauren
If it’s an apple will.
00:37:28:21 – 00:37:29:17
Kasim
Bring a release.
00:37:29:21 – 00:37:32:00
Lauren
Let’s, Yeah.
00:37:32:02 – 00:37:54:10
Ralph
Anyway, we’re going to be there. We can’t wait. And, it’s an all star crew. Check it out over at, perpetual traffic to com forward slash gross selfies included as well. Custom Islam. This is just a hint of what’s going to be talked about at that show. I’m even more excited than I ever was to see you and Lauren live.
00:37:54:10 – 00:38:14:18
Ralph
And it’s been way too long. And by the way, in person conferences are exactly what we’re talking about here. Like, that’s really where a lot of this stuff happens. The best ideas, the best relationships, the best business deals I’ve ever made are in person and usually at events. So. So you’re same, I think, with all of you guys.
00:38:14:18 – 00:38:16:12
Ralph
So we’re huge believers in it.
00:38:16:18 – 00:38:40:09
Lauren
Well, I’m like legit excited about this conference because if we weren’t having the opportunity to speak like I wanted to go because the people I know that are attending, people I know who bought tickets and people I know that are speaking, the people you sit next to at the events, like you’re talking about some of the greatest deals, like there’s even so much value that even if you don’t know some of the speakers or you do know all the speakers, the speakers are doers, but the people sitting next to you are also doers.
00:38:40:09 – 00:39:00:16
Lauren
So you end up learning more, not just from what you’re hearing on stage, but what you’re learning from other people that are sitting, actually. So like I, I legit was ready to buy this ticket and I was like, I want to be at this conference because the people I know that are attending are the actual doers. And it’s not forgive me to anyone who’s listening that falls into this category.
00:39:00:22 – 00:39:19:06
Lauren
A lot of times I see the same speakers at conferences that are speaking on the same subject that I’ve already seen for the last 3 or 4 years at other conferences, but at the same time, those other conferences no longer exist. So like in all like full transparency, shrill or whatever, what’s that word you use? Like, I’m actually interested in this conference.
00:39:19:06 – 00:39:28:07
Lauren
It’s in San Diego, so it’s a really nice place to be. Period. Full stop. So, like, I’m actually excited that you guys have put this together, not stop.
00:39:28:07 – 00:39:33:21
Kasim
I appreciate you going particular. Thanks for having me on. I’ll see you. All that growth hacking. I’m so, so excited.
00:39:33:23 – 00:39:53:16
Ralph
Yeah, but for trafficking, for slash growth, make sure that you go over there, sign up. Can’t wait to see you, in September. So chasm. Awesome. Dude, it’s been an honor and a privilege to have you back on it. Stop it. I’ve noticed you have more books in your background, by the way. Well, it’s.
00:39:53:20 – 00:39:55:02
Kasim
3000 books in this home and.
00:39:55:04 – 00:40:13:06
Ralph
3000 books and and and a new blue shirt. So he’s going away from the black shirt. You just got to go to see, like, what you’re going to wear. Yeah. And I think we see that, like, you have a stylist, you have a $20 stylist. Now it’s like, man, you’re splurging living large. Wherever you listen to podcasts, make sure that you do leave us a rating review.
00:40:13:06 – 00:40:35:22
Ralph
We got this show out to more folks like yourself and learn how to do this shit the right way. So on behalf of my amazing co-host Lauren Petrillo, 12 piece until next show, see you.
