Many marketers focus solely on driving traffic but overlook the critical step that follows: the landing page. In this episode, Andrew Miller, Co-Founder and VP of Client Services at Workshop Digital, shares how landing page optimization (LPO) and leveraging first-party data can drastically increase the ROI of your marketing campaigns.
With over 20 years of experience, Andrew has helped countless B2B businesses maximize their conversions by optimizing their post-click experience. We explore the game-changing role of AI tools like Google’s AI Max and how they’re reshaping the future of online marketing.
You’ll also learn how to bridge the gap between AI-driven ads and optimized landing pages for different target audiences to attract better leads and achieve higher conversions.
In This Episode:
00:00 Introduction
03:06 SEO in the age of AI
07:28 Content quality and distribution strategies
12:46 How AI Max has impacted Google ads
16:52 The future of media buying and data flow
19:04 Optimizing landing pages and the post-click experience
24:38 Why aligning marketing and sales is critical
27:03 How to optimize data flows & micro conversions for better leads
29:50 Targeting the right customers with AI
32:25 Case study on the impact of dedicated landing pages
46:46 How to get in touch with Andrew Miller
Mentioned In the Episode:
Google AI Max: https://blog.google/products/ads-commerce/google-ai-max-for-search-campaigns/
Use the code “PT10off” at the end of your trial to get 10% off: https://unbounce.com/pt/
Previous episodes on landing page optimization:
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- Website: https://www.workshopdigital.com/
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READ THE TRANSCRIPT:
Episode 731: Google AI Max: What You & Your Landing Pages Need to Know With Andrew Miller
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:15:05
Andrew Miller
With AI Max. One of the areas that we're paying close attention to is how much control we can have over that post click experience, especially in B2B, which is our specialty. The landing page is the customer experience. So if you're not focused on that and you're only concerned with getting the click, you're missing an opportunity to improve your ROI.
00:00:15:06 - 00:00:22:20
Ralph
What do you advise on all of that? And how do you sort of simplify it down to say, this is what we need to focus on, and here's how we move forward.
00:00:22:22 - 00:00:25:11
Andrew Miller
So.
00:00:25:13 - 00:00:32:05
Ralph
Hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic Podcast. This is your host, Ralph Burns, alongside my amazing co-host.
00:00:32:10 - 00:00:35:05
Lauren
Lauren E Petrillo, the founder of Mongoose Media.
00:00:35:07 - 00:00:58:01
Ralph
So glad you joined us here today. If you're new to this show, this is a show all about how to do marketing the right way in the digital additional realm. That we are now finding ourselves with AI, with all kinds of shiny objects. But we do things the right way through metrics that matter and growth at scales. If you're a VP of marketing, if you're Director of marketing, you have found the right spot here.
00:00:58:03 - 00:01:16:09
Ralph
And today we are going to be talking about a highly overlooked aspect of digital marketing. And yeah, one that I don't think a lot of people really pay that much attention to are they pay less attention to it than they probably should. Would you would you agree or would you not agree? Lauren.
00:01:16:11 - 00:01:25:02
Lauren
Oh, I 100% agree. And I actually was guilty of this for years, like, three years ago. I remember being like, oh, who cares? After the click.
00:01:25:04 - 00:01:45:04
Ralph
Yeah. Who cares? Has nothing to do with it. Well, actually it does. And I think it's even more important now. And this is the third in a three part series of the importance of landing page optimization, or just landing pages, just in general. You're just sending to PDP pages and you're an e-commerce company. You will learn something from this show here today.
00:01:45:04 - 00:02:06:10
Ralph
If you are a digital products business or your services business, an example we're going to be using is in the services based business, which is a great example. And the importance of everything that's after the click. And we have a very special guest here today, Andrew Miller, co-founder and VP of Client Services at Workshop Digital, who I thought was really just a landing page optimization company.
00:02:06:10 - 00:02:12:02
Ralph
They actually do a lot of us SEO too. No wonder they're so good at. So welcome to Perpetual Traffic.
00:02:12:07 - 00:02:14:21
Andrew Miller
Thank you both. Glad to be here.
00:02:14:23 - 00:02:39:20
Ralph
So before we get into the Ltpo stuff, I just want to get your take as an SEO guy. And I'm a reformed SEO guy, meaning that I did it when there was link wheels in black hat and the ultimate spinner. Like spinning articles and creating like, thousands of meaningless backlinks and buying, you know, PR six domains and all that other crazy stuff.
00:02:39:20 - 00:02:59:20
Ralph
Paying Harvard University to put like $1,000 scholarship on their page to get a backlink from them, like all of that crazy stuff which you now know how to do, which all those strategies which I just mentioned are completely out of date, by the way, so we are not sanctioning those or recommending them whatsoever. What's your take as somebody who knows a fair bit about SEO?
00:02:59:20 - 00:03:17:01
Ralph
And SEO obviously is important to pages that you're going to be sending to. So we'll get that that just a second. With relation to Google, what's your take on AI and how things have changed? Obviously in the last year and a half, two years, when it comes to search engine optimization and search results?
00:03:17:04 - 00:03:37:04
Andrew Miller
I've seen a lot of proclamations that SEOs dead SEO is changing over the last 20 plus years that I've been in the SEO space, I would say the last two years have by far been the most interesting. The tactics you described kind of in that lead in, I don't even want to say that the Golden Age, because you can strokes for different folks.
00:03:37:04 - 00:03:37:15
Andrew Miller
But that was in the.
00:03:37:15 - 00:03:41:21
Ralph
Bronze Age, I think is a Bronze Age that golden age. Yeah.
00:03:41:21 - 00:03:43:08
Andrew Miller
What's what's the Neanderthal?
00:03:43:10 - 00:03:46:01
Lauren
Neanderthal age of fire.
00:03:46:03 - 00:03:47:00
Ralph
Age of fire?
00:03:47:00 - 00:04:08:10
Andrew Miller
I think you're you're playing with fire. And eventually the fact is get you burned. Right. These days, obviously it's it's come back full circle in SEO space where it's now about and always has been about the quality of the content and the quality of the relationship you can build with a visitor through content. The AI is better able to see through a lot of the crap and, low quality content.
00:04:08:12 - 00:04:33:02
Andrew Miller
Google's SEO and ranking algorithms have been really, really good over the last few years at filtering out duplicative or irrelevant results. AI is only adding another layer of of complexity to that and opportunity. So as we're all kind of discovering what it means to do SEO these days while fending off other acronyms, I o geo, that's how they're Asac.
00:04:33:02 - 00:04:34:15
Lauren
So, wait, what is that?
00:04:34:17 - 00:04:35:18
Ralph
That's a new one on me.
00:04:35:18 - 00:04:36:18
Lauren
I don't know, this one.
00:04:36:18 - 00:04:39:00
Andrew Miller
Search experience optimization.
00:04:39:01 - 00:04:42:19
Ralph
Oh, I didn't have a name for it. That's funny.
00:04:42:21 - 00:05:02:19
Lauren
I didn't know this, but I almost like a lot of things that you're saying is like how? Like the dawn of answer engines and LMS of SEO. I feel like I even just like the I bought some the programmatic side of I is not only fighting AI slop and those padded keywords at size zero, font in white in the footer, all that garbage from before.
00:05:03:01 - 00:05:24:00
Lauren
But I have seen that even well-designed landing pages in websites are now being restricted to impressions because of structure data like that data flow of how to read your website for the user experience. It's like this balance of you want to make sure the user can enjoy their time on the website, but if you don't structure it from like basic headlines, each one they will headline h1 and H2.
00:05:24:02 - 00:05:51:08
Lauren
H3 is all that jazz. If you don't have that set up, they're not gonna able to read. And like I you saw that Gemini release. They're now doing off server chat bots reading your website. So even if you don't care about this, you're screwed because they're making closed system chat bots on people's websites, reading your whole website so that now if someone finds a Google intent answer matching their response, they go to your website to continue the Google experience.
00:05:51:10 - 00:05:57:22
Lauren
On top of your existing website using all that structured data. So like you're saying, oh, there's an experienced engine optimization.
00:05:57:22 - 00:06:14:06
Andrew Miller
Pick your acronym of choice, but let's just call SEO it. If you really want to expand it. It can be search everywhere optimization because you everything is a search engine to some extent these days. Social platforms, LMS or chatbots, traditional web search. My mom's brain.
00:06:14:06 - 00:06:14:13
Lauren
Yes.
00:06:14:13 - 00:06:18:23
Andrew Miller
Because your mom has encyclopedic knowledge of something. I'd still trust that over some of the web results out here.
00:06:18:23 - 00:06:20:13
Lauren
It's more of her gut feeling now.
00:06:20:15 - 00:06:25:03
Andrew Miller
Intuition. I can't account for that, but I can agree that mom's intuition is usually right.
00:06:25:05 - 00:06:25:23
Ralph
Yeah.
00:06:26:00 - 00:06:46:10
Andrew Miller
Yeah. So it just it's kind of tying it all together, like. Yeah, it's a fascinating time to be anywhere near SEO these days. The biggest challenge we're all trying to solve for and what we hear the most from our clients and with the questions they have, is know how do we track visibility and inclusion in in LMS or chat bots or search experience or that experiences?
00:06:46:10 - 00:07:02:04
Andrew Miller
Right. There's a big, black hole in our analytics and attribution and performance data right now, because we can see an increase in impressions for search Console, for example, typically see a decrease in clicks, coming directly from organic sources. We might say, hey.
00:07:02:06 - 00:07:02:17
Lauren
Right.
00:07:02:19 - 00:07:20:07
Andrew Miller
Yeah. The alligator. Right. The alligator chart that we see in search Console, a lot of cases, direct and referral traffic is up to offset that which is being misattributed in analytics tools or GA for other times, total traffic volume is down, but traffic quality's up. So, you know, leads and qualified leads and revenue can be flat or increase.
00:07:20:07 - 00:07:29:00
Andrew Miller
It's just such a mixed bag and every client of ours is different. But the general trend is quality is up. Well, even more traffic might be declining from traditional organic search.
00:07:29:02 - 00:07:47:06
Ralph
So as somebody comes to you for SEO and they say, I just don't know what I'm doing now, ever since, you know, all this AI stuff and these everything changed about a year and a half ago, two years ago. What's the one thing that you try to focus in on? Content. Quality is always going to be the most important thing like.
00:07:47:06 - 00:08:02:15
Ralph
And that's hard to quantify, but like what do you find. And we'll get into some of the algorithm updates here, which we've talked about in previous shows. But before we get into that, I think this is an important one because this is something that people struggle with. And I hear this a lot every single week, and I don't necessarily have an answer.
00:08:02:15 - 00:08:05:21
Ralph
From an SEO standpoint, what would your answer usually be?
00:08:05:22 - 00:08:34:06
Andrew Miller
Understanding what your customers or potential customers need, not just the keywords they're searching for. I think the keyword specific content strategies that did work and still continue to work and, you know, SEO strategies, we have to translate our thinking now to thinking in terms of obviously longer form queries or prompts. I just called a prompt understanding what people are actually looking for, and then answering as many of those questions as you can with your content, with your unique expertise and authority, your experience.
00:08:34:06 - 00:08:56:12
Andrew Miller
All the E8 signals that Google's looking for do directly translate to AI visibility and inclusion. Google's on a record saying that. So, you know, we feel pretty comfortable carrying that message forward. And then it's about, you know, content distribution and syndication leads are trained on large data sets. So the more times and more places your brand, your content shows up across reviews, sites, social platforms, content, you know, distribution news sites, period.
00:08:56:13 - 00:09:05:14
Andrew Miller
Again, what's old is new again. So we're looking at content distribution and syndication as a way to help train the next generation of LMS to include more of our clients and their brands content.
00:09:05:14 - 00:09:30:14
Ralph
It's interesting because on one side, the AI algorithms seem to be favoring longer standing, almost fermented content that's been around for quite some time and has a track record of, you know, any sort of backlinks or just content that has been consistently created. But then there's other times when I'm searching where it's like recency is the most important thing, and it's not necessarily news based.
00:09:30:14 - 00:09:46:03
Ralph
Like for example, if you Google marketing podcasts like we're right there, but I was googling like chipping versus putting or chipping versus wedge or something for like one of my kids, like, what's the difference between like chipping in and using your wedge like we needed? And it was.
00:09:46:03 - 00:09:47:04
Lauren
All specific sand.
00:09:47:04 - 00:10:02:14
Ralph
Traps. It was really recent content. And I'm like, that is a huge keyword that you want to dominate. And this guy just so happened to have a video from a month ago, but I'm like, there's plenty of other videos on chipping in golf. Like, why is he ranking high? It's like I was like, what the hell?
00:10:02:14 - 00:10:26:09
Andrew Miller
So I believe was perplexity. The SEO industry tries to kind of, I wouldn't say reverse engineer, but understand more about the behaviors of these, these LMS and how they can how they return. A response to your prompt, I believe, is perplexity. That's noted for testing that recency component. So they're actually just like a social network. They'll give you an initial boost of visibility to see if your content is actually engaging and gets traction.
00:10:26:09 - 00:10:43:14
Andrew Miller
And then if so, you'll maintain more of that visibility. If not, you might drop out of that, you drop your results. So what you're seeing is probably, you know, some sort of freshness component to content, which is why, you know, we encourage clients not to just sit back on their laurels and rely on their old content, keep producing fresh content.
00:10:43:14 - 00:10:44:19
Andrew Miller
But it's got to be.
00:10:44:21 - 00:10:45:17
Lauren
Or updating.
00:10:45:18 - 00:10:46:10
Andrew Miller
Valuable or.
00:10:46:10 - 00:10:47:04
Lauren
Otherwise content.
00:10:47:04 - 00:10:49:20
Andrew Miller
So run update, roll rolling rolling up,
00:10:49:22 - 00:10:58:10
Lauren
Yeah. If you have a 2019 best apps to use for your Shopify store, if they're still relevant. Yeah, change is 2425 or update that list for the ones there.
00:10:58:10 - 00:11:16:02
Andrew Miller
So remixing content is a great way to repurpose what you got and engage your internal experts and get their fresh takes on what's going on in the industry that's proving successful early on in this AI world. But you know, who knows, the next iteration and the next LMS could come along and rock the boat even more. And that keeps us all employed, right?
00:11:16:08 - 00:11:17:11
Ralph
Yeah, no. For sure.
00:11:17:13 - 00:11:19:23
Lauren
Do you watch Tennis Ralph or Andrew.
00:11:20:00 - 00:11:21:16
Andrew Miller
Card a little bit of the open this weekend.
00:11:21:20 - 00:11:43:12
Lauren
All right. Well, like, you know how like tennis rankings are, the lower you are in the world, the higher players you play against. So like I would say like Naomi and how she was 17, 24 it than was always playing against the top seeded. I wonder if perplexity or other alarms are going to start treating your content the way that the US open just tennis tournaments treat ranked players the worst person.
00:11:43:12 - 00:12:07:11
Lauren
We'll play the top tier people and then if they succeed, then they'll increase rankings because it's like you're more recent. That's why I'm saying you're like lower ranking, you're more recent to this division. And so you're playing a top tier person. And if your performance outperforms on then you can increase that significance because you have that recency. So you're being put up against like the Arnold Palmer content of short play long playing golf.
00:12:07:13 - 00:12:26:16
Andrew Miller
Yeah I mean it's simplistic but yes I think there's a place for new contenders, new brands in the AI space. But I think the educational piece we're trying to communicate is that it's not a true algorithm like a search engine. Right. It's going to be more fuzzy in terms of inputs and outputs. And what correlates to success.
00:12:26:16 - 00:12:42:23
Andrew Miller
Because LMS and chat bots are probabilistic, they're not random, but nobody knows how they work, right? There's not one single or series of algorithms behind the scenes that anybody can explain. We're doing a lot of testing and learning and experimenting to see what potentially could work, and what works for one brand may not work for another. It is truly the Wild West.
00:12:43:04 - 00:13:09:02
Ralph
It's a it's a fascinating time, I think, for all of us, one of the things that, steered me away from SEO because it got too hard. Now it's even harder, obviously, like by a factor of like 100 is the fact that paid advertising is just the easiest way. And what we found is that a lot of businesses just say, hey, I just I want results now, as opposed to waiting on SEO or improving what used to be there.
00:13:09:04 - 00:13:32:11
Ralph
And it's a longer process. I mean, obviously there's a whole show in there. We could talk about that. But relating this all back to changes within Google, there's obviously there's a huge change right now on the landing page. Optimization side with this new Google AI Max. And we've talked about it here a couple of times with Taz and with Val on this three part series here.
00:13:32:11 - 00:13:41:12
Ralph
But what's your take on it, and how does this sort of affect marketers? We can kind of get into some of the examples of some of the landing page stuff that you've done in the past, which is pretty impressive.
00:13:41:12 - 00:14:03:22
Andrew Miller
Yeah, I love the transition from organic to paid. AI has been around in the paid space for a decade. Google's obviously given us a lot of advanced targeting and bidding optimization tools just within the Google Ads platform. And of course, the other paid platforms have followed suit. So our team at Workshop Digital is much more familiar and comfortable with, you know, how to leverage those tools now.
00:14:03:22 - 00:14:23:02
Andrew Miller
And you know, those in the space are still kind of poking around and figuring out, you know, with Google's new campaign types, starting with performance Max, a couple of years ago, an AI Max, now we're losing some of that fine grained control as advertisers about who sees our ads, where they see it, how they see it, what format it takes, and that creates challenges.
00:14:23:02 - 00:14:34:11
Andrew Miller
But it also creates a lot of opportunities, opportunities to reach more prospective customers or a larger audience, even if they're not specifically searching for the keywords they think they should be searching for. It could be searching for in their their journey.
00:14:34:11 - 00:14:54:19
Ralph
So I Max, how has it affected you all and the clients that you have and how does it relate back to obviously quality score, cost per clicks, CTR, like all of that. Like give us sort of an overview of it and what you've sort of seen. I know it's still relatively new, but what are your thoughts on it?
00:14:54:19 - 00:15:08:00
Ralph
And obviously one of the things that comes out of this is the importance of landing pages, which is sort of a precursor to everything that we're talking about here in today's show. But what businesses should be looking for on their paid ads, is there a decline that you're seeing? What's been your observations recently?
00:15:08:01 - 00:15:26:11
Andrew Miller
Imax is new, right? It's a few months old and across all of our clients in the paid media space, we've only had a couple early adopters that are really starting to just gather some data now and be able to compare against previous results. So I don't have a, you know, a fully formed POV yet on next. Obviously, Google's pushing it hard.
00:15:26:11 - 00:15:43:22
Andrew Miller
We think there could be a future where Google, you know, moves away from keywords and match types entirely and asks us to trust the black box. But, you know, our job is as an agency is kind of to be professional skeptics and trust but verify or validate the results before we recommend these new platforms to our clients and migrate their campaigns.
00:15:44:01 - 00:15:59:08
Andrew Miller
So zooming back a little bit in time, you know, we had the same trust issue with performance Max or free Max several years ago when this first started coming out. You know, it's kind of the latest iteration of AdWords express or the automated way to launch Google Ads campaigns inside that black box. Just tell us who you want to target.
00:15:59:08 - 00:16:15:01
Andrew Miller
We'll do the rest. We'll do bidding, we'll do keywords, we'll do creative, and then we'll optimize it. It took us a couple of years as an agency, you know, literally 18, 24 months of kind of poking and prodding within Max to actually start to trust the results, to the point where we could start to roll it out more comfortably to more of our clients.
00:16:15:02 - 00:16:33:03
Andrew Miller
I think that's what we're going to see with AI. Max, you know, we're very much, you know, in the early stages of learning where it has strengths and where it can beat a human. But now, you know, a year, year and a half later with performance Max, the previous iteration, we are getting more comfortable offloading some of the more routine, mundane tasks to the AI.
00:16:33:03 - 00:16:52:01
Andrew Miller
And I think we're going to get there with AI Max. But it still could be, you know, another year, year and a half before they've got that system really dialed in to where our humans can then more effectively focus on strategy, creative strategy, data and insights and actually, you know, tying into CRM and optimizing landing pages to feed all that data back into the AI.
00:16:52:01 - 00:17:15:18
Lauren
Yeah, the data flow back to, I think is going to be the the dawn of the new age, because while so many of the pieces that we're doing are restricted from the media, buying side things like landing page optimization and ensuring that the data flow back into the CRM, so that your programmatic AI is optimized, where you actually want to go, for me, is a non-negotiable for agencies in the next few years, or you won't have any agency because media buying is going away.
00:17:15:18 - 00:17:39:17
Lauren
So where I admit earlier, like several years ago, I remember being like as a media buyer, I care about before the click the business owner is responsible for after the click their offer, their landing page assets are not paying for me to do and optimize those things. But in this world where media buying as a role is going away, if you don't focus on the data flow, and if you don't focus on the landing page optimization, your programmatic AI isn't gonna be able to do anything for you.
00:17:39:21 - 00:17:59:06
Andrew Miller
Absolutely. It's the biggest differentiator we have as marketers is the first party data, right? And the performance data on the back end. So it's it's kind of shortsighted to to not put as much attention for those areas as your audience identification or keyword targeting or ad creative itself with AI. Max, one of the areas that we're paying close attention to is how much control we can have over that post.
00:17:59:06 - 00:18:19:07
Andrew Miller
Click experience for visitors and landing pages. Not for in many cases, especially in B2B, which is our specialty. You know, we focus, you know, 90 plus percent of our business on B2B and lead generation objectives for clients versus the e-com and retail experience. But in a B2B or Legion environment, the landing page is the customer experience. So a lot of times it is the first brand.
00:18:19:09 - 00:18:37:17
Andrew Miller
So if you're if you're not focused on that and you're just you're only concerned with getting the click, you're missing an opportunity to improve your ROI by converting more of those visitors to leads or pre-qualifying some of those visitors to the right types of leads. For a business, it's often overlooked. But Ralph, to your point, early on, marketers bit have known about landing pages for a decade.
00:18:37:17 - 00:18:56:20
Andrew Miller
Unbalanced. Our platform of choice has been around since we signed on with them in at least 2010. Yeah. Oh no. We're big advocates for it. And I think one of the craziest parts of this whole industry, to me, is we're all chasing shiny objects and learning as we can about AI, but we're still neglecting a lot of the tried and true strategies away.
00:18:56:20 - 00:18:57:14
Lauren
You know.
00:18:57:16 - 00:19:04:12
Andrew Miller
Conversion optimization, landing page optimization, utilizing first party data. And it's a wild time, but the basics still work.
00:19:04:12 - 00:19:20:23
Ralph
Yeah, it's funny because it's and I've talked to the unbalanced people about this. Like the first three tools I think I bought when I started doing what I'm doing was unbalance because and that was before like lead pages or any Insta pages or any of this other sort of stuff. Just because it was so modular has gotten even better over time.
00:19:20:23 - 00:19:37:02
Ralph
But I was forced to do it because I had a client that only sold at Home Depot and I couldn't. He was like, yeah, just sell more of my stuff at Home Depot. And then we're going to eventually going to get Lowe's and like, well, how do I do that? So I needed a pre-sell page and they didn't have a website right.
00:19:37:04 - 00:19:49:16
Ralph
That's like one of my first clients. So like what resource. And I must have Google searched it found on bounce. And then they stayed with me for like four years and they're now like a $100 million company.
00:19:49:18 - 00:19:51:21
Lauren
So they didn't bounce.
00:19:51:23 - 00:19:52:17
Ralph
They didn't tell.
00:19:52:22 - 00:19:53:13
Lauren
You.
00:19:53:15 - 00:20:22:16
Ralph
They clicked. And it was like before and afters. Like they sold this radiator cover. It's like the strangest thing anyway. So the point is it's like that sort of stuff like that was the same back then. Now that was a different set of circumstances because they didn't actually have a website, so I was forced to do it. But it's like all of this is so vitally important now, and I think people just forget about it or just think, oh, well, everything after the click really isn't my job.
00:20:22:16 - 00:20:47:14
Ralph
But there's two parts to after the click. In my opinion. There's the experience after they actually physically click on the ad to say, oh, I've arrived at the right place. My ad is in alignment with what I'm seeing when I land there. They teach you that in landing page optimization, school web website and switch. No bait and switch, of course, but then it's like once they click, how deep do they click in?
00:20:47:14 - 00:21:05:03
Ralph
Meaning how deep do they click? What data do you ultimately want at the end of the line that you want to push back into the algorithm, which typically, you know, in some cases, like with straightforward e-commerce brands, is just a purchase or a new conversion or a conversions API, all that sort of stuff that we talk about here on the show.
00:21:05:03 - 00:21:19:08
Ralph
But in the case of the example that we're going to use here today, it's an offline conversion which people still are not doing that. I had three calls last week with service based businesses like what's an offline conversion? Oh no. You know, I.
00:21:19:08 - 00:21:22:08
Andrew Miller
Get phones there, a phone ring, right? That's an offline conversion.
00:21:22:09 - 00:21:47:19
Ralph
The phone's ringing, but we're not signing any cases. I had that same exact answer for two lawyers. Different type of space. P law in the criminal space. Point was, is like all of that is we've said this 100 times on the show. But we're going to say it again, because you train the algorithm and the right thing that you actually want the algorithm to find, right, which is a paid customer, provided that you're giving as much of that data back to the algorithm as possible.
00:21:48:00 - 00:22:03:23
Ralph
That's the thing that you want. Or maybe it's the precursor to that. It's like, you know, they show up for the appointment after they schedule the call with a salesperson, whatever it happens to be. So can you talk to that and the importance of CRM and offline data with all this AI Max and how it all kind of works together?
00:22:03:23 - 00:22:32:17
Andrew Miller
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just drawing on an example from last week, I was in a strategy presentation to a home builder client, good mid-sized home builder client here in Richmond, Virginia, where we're based, and they manage and operate several large communities. They're constantly expanding their their geographic footprint. And AI's been beneficial to them. Right. Our paid media strategies have yielded, you know, triple digit year over year growth in leads, which is as far as we can typically see into their conversion journey, the customer journey.
00:22:32:18 - 00:22:52:06
Andrew Miller
So by our metrics, what we can measure, what our marketing manager client can measure, you know, we're killing it for them. I lead leads Rob over 200% year over year. Great. Here's the challenge. And when we're sitting down with our sales team this happens a lot. And somebody your example Ralphie we're sitting down with you know the entire revenue team over their sales is represented.
00:22:52:06 - 00:22:56:12
Andrew Miller
Operations is represented is in great leads. Right. But you know what. So spammy.
00:22:56:14 - 00:22:57:17
Lauren
So yeah.
00:22:57:18 - 00:22:58:18
Ralph
Huge problem go.
00:22:58:19 - 00:23:15:13
Andrew Miller
Spam. And there we can look back. It's coming from the performance Max campaigns. And why. Because I is only as good as the data it's trained on. So you put garbage in you're going to get garbage out. And so your point Ralph's the number one thing we recommend to clients. And this story has a happy ending from last week.
00:23:15:13 - 00:23:38:11
Andrew Miller
That's how you get buy in for saying we need CRM data. That first party data, the conversion data, the lead qualification data fed back into the bidding algorithms or the targeting algorithm so that Google can go find more customers, like the ones that actually purchase, or sign a contract or tour a model home or what, you know, whatever, whatever stage we want to measure and qualify the challenges.
00:23:38:11 - 00:23:52:16
Andrew Miller
If you only optimize for leads, Google is going to go find you more leads or conversions at a low price, but they're going to be crap because they don't know what a quality customer looks like to that brand and how how uniquely that brand qualifies a visitor in their CRM.
00:23:52:16 - 00:24:11:16
Lauren
You don't wait the people in your CRM according to the value that they have to your business. Then everyone is treated equally. And that's where like for me, I'm like very aggressively violent. That leads are horseshit. You don't have dialog, you don't have sales. So if you're saying that everyone in your CRM is the same, it's like every visitor to your website is equal to that person.
00:24:11:16 - 00:24:32:09
Lauren
That's on a thank you page for a purchase or a privacy policy page in your footer. Like they're not all created equal. We have to like market to humans individually. And yeah, like that again that data flow. Like if you don't feed that back in, you're optimizing for more of what you don't want and you're accepting mediocrity. But I'm like, whatever, keep doing it bad.
00:24:32:11 - 00:24:38:04
Lauren
Other competitors, you make it easier for me. And I realize, as I said, it's really hard right now.
00:24:38:06 - 00:24:56:05
Andrew Miller
It's hard. But here's why I'm bullish on on where we're going with with AI and data and mapping customer journeys and everything. It's typically in a, in a conversation like we had last week with this homebuilder client as an example, you've got marketing pointing the finger at sales, sales, pointing the finger back at marketing, saying, you know, the lead suck, but you're not closing enough.
00:24:56:07 - 00:24:56:18
Ralph
Yeah.
00:24:56:23 - 00:25:20:16
Andrew Miller
Who's to blame? Nobody knows because there's no single source of truth. The happy ending to that story was we got, you know, finally, after years of trying to push forward and work our way into different parts of the organization, now we have everybody at the same table sitting down saying, yep, actually, our goal is qualified leads. Let's work together to clean up the data flows, capture more data from the campaigns through the website, through HubSpot, the CRM, and then into Salesforce.
00:25:20:18 - 00:25:35:18
Andrew Miller
Right. So the more those data points we can connect, then it becomes an automated process where that data flows back into the Google Ads, bidding algorithms, and LinkedIn and meta and everything else. We will soon be able to optimize for qualified leads, not just we volume.
00:25:35:20 - 00:25:54:20
Ralph
Right. And that's a challenge, I think, for a lot of businesses. So we have a regional medical services company that we're doing a test with right now, and they probably get 2 to 3 new customers a week. But at their ad spend it's maybe 1 to 2 because they're doing small tests for each one of the individual regions.
00:25:54:20 - 00:26:23:06
Ralph
And at that volume, you're not giving the algorithm enough data. So the key then is is okay, what's the step before this they buy. And in the case of the construction company that you're talking about here, it might be, you know, an in-person meeting. It might be a consultation. It might be a sales call with, you know, a prospect that you know, has the money and is pre-qualified for a mortgage or whatever it happens to be.
00:26:23:06 - 00:26:42:15
Ralph
There's some event somewhere along your continuum that says, this is the customer I want Google to find more of. Yes. And I think it's we say it's easy, like, oh, just, you know, plug in your customer and that's it. That's your event. Well, it doesn't always work quite that way. There's always that it depends and it depends on budget.
00:26:42:15 - 00:27:01:17
Ralph
It depends on a lot of things. And especially for a purchase of maybe a half $1 million, I don't know what the prices of real estate are in Richmond. I have to assume these are, you know, 300 to $700,000 homes is what we're talking about here. Like, that's a pretty significant purchase, which isn't happening every single day unless these guys are totally cranking.
00:27:01:17 - 00:27:16:05
Ralph
Maybe that that is the case. So what do you advise on all of that? And how do you sort of simplify it down to say, this is what we need to focus on. This is what we need to construct the landing pages and the the LPO all around. And here's how we move forward.
00:27:16:10 - 00:27:35:08
Andrew Miller
Sure. Yeah. There's Lauren. Lauren made a good point. You got to put a value on each of those interactions, right. That we can track. Right. Obviously a qualified lead is going to close at a predetermined rate to an actual sale. So that's a that's a relatively easy calculation to, say, an average profit margin on a new customers, which is use around numbers outside of the home builder space.
00:27:35:08 - 00:27:58:12
Andrew Miller
But, you know, let's say an average customer is worth ten grand. We need, you know, 25 leads to convert one new customer. So we can do the backwards math pretty easily to say, how much are we willing to pay per lead to acquire or hit the sales goals? The challenges? Not every company out there is driving enough sales every month or every quarter to feed that data back into the algorithm, get statistical significance, and really account for seasonality and everything else.
00:27:58:14 - 00:28:13:12
Andrew Miller
So then we have to look at micro conversions or kind of those upper funnel conversions. And in the case of a home builder, that's people to view a virtual tour. Right. How many do they engage with that shows a sign of interest. How many are clicking to get directions to a community? How many are downloading brochures, watching videos?
00:28:13:12 - 00:28:45:18
Andrew Miller
Each of those little engagements help us determine the value, potential value of that visitor. And then each of those events or key events. And Google Analytics can be, given an approximate value and that approximate values. What's fed back into Google Ads to say, yeah, help me go find more of these people. Obviously we want to weight and more heavily weight the qualified leads, but since we don't have enough data, there, let's also look at the people that are engaging with the tours, the videos or brochures because they have value to then I can convert convert had as high of a rate, but we want to continue nurturing them.
00:28:45:18 - 00:29:07:17
Andrew Miller
Then we can reach out back to them if they complete step A where they view a tour, but they don't submit a lead yet or visit a model home, we can still target them. Create a separate targeting list with the people have, you know, started that journey but not yet finished the journey and then market to them specifically in that middle of the funnel consideration stage, because it can take months for someone to do it's really, you know, have those conversations and feel comfortable moving forward.
00:29:07:19 - 00:29:12:13
Ralph
And I find that it's usually it's just getting everybody in the room together trying to figure this out.
00:29:12:15 - 00:29:14:00
Andrew Miller
Refine it. It's not technology.
00:29:14:04 - 00:29:15:20
Ralph
It's not a technology. It's so.
00:29:15:20 - 00:29:34:17
Andrew Miller
True. Yeah. The technology like easy part, right. Getting data out of Salesforce or out a hotspot back into Google at Google adds up. That's been solved. Right. Where we're finding the difficulty is in getting the right people at the table and then getting buy in to prioritize some of those data projects. Right. So our analytics team is constantly working with it.
00:29:34:22 - 00:29:48:18
Andrew Miller
And every source is to say, actually, we need these Salesforce fields built and we need to capture form data, pass it through and then once we see that, I'll link to all those fields right up with data. We know the marketing team can go back in and do what they need to do.
00:29:48:20 - 00:30:14:07
Ralph
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that leads into our example here of you want to figure out who is in those meetings. You want to figure out who's our most lucrative customer to who's the one that we really want to target. And I know in your example here, that's a big part of it. And data is a huge part of obviously the the data that's being fed back to the ad platform.
00:30:14:07 - 00:30:35:16
Ralph
But in the middle there is the UX. It is speaking to the client that you've already had. All the interested parties within the within the organization come together. We say we want to focus on this type of business and we want because they have higher value, they have higher LTV, they have all these other sorts of things that are going to benefit the business and ultimately grow it.
00:30:35:18 - 00:30:54:12
Ralph
That's metrics that matter and growth at scales, as opposed to just getting any old person coming in the door. It does come back to how do you target them? What do you say to them? How do you speak to them on your front facing ads and then having a consistent message once they actually do, click the ad with those business metrics that matter in mind.
00:30:54:12 - 00:31:26:04
Ralph
And I think the example that you you have previewed to us, which if you're not watching over on YouTube, you definitely want to head on over to perpetual traffic.com/youtube, because this is a tremendous example of how to sort of bring all that together with right messaging and then with the data in the back end, feeding it back into the algorithm in order to target the right business to grow that this particular in this case, it was a business, but it's you want to actually grow the business through targeting the right type of customer.
00:31:26:06 - 00:31:54:23
Ralph
So this brings us all back to the importance of landing pages and having it be a consistent experience with the message that's in the ad. And then after the landing page, the right data being fed back to the algorithm. But I think just showing an example of how you were able to do this, to really turn around not only a campaign, but also focus on the right types of customer through ads and through the landing page in order to really move that business forward.
00:31:54:23 - 00:32:16:11
Ralph
And if you're not on our YouTube channel, you should be, for crying out loud. At this point in time, perpetual traffic.com/youtube. So Andrew, maybe if you could do a screen share here, we can show exactly what we're talking about. And this all ties back into Imax. And this is the kind of stuff that you're going to need to start doing in order to make these paid ads really, really work.
00:32:16:11 - 00:32:25:14
Ralph
And it's not. The landing page is not like the lost black hole. It's super important to the entire customer journey. And I think this is a great example of that.
00:32:25:16 - 00:32:47:16
Andrew Miller
Let me set the scene because it's always more fun to show rather than tell, which is just just so you know what we're looking at when this when this pops up, one of our clients is in the custom wall mural, a custom wallpaper space. They can take any photo design graphic and blow it up, you know, think of the city skylines you might see in a business or a restaurant or hotel, custom art that people might have in their homes.
00:32:47:16 - 00:33:08:11
Andrew Miller
Very unique, very customizable, very cool stuff that lets us individualize our spaces. So the challenge that we're trying to solve with this client is that they've traditionally grown up as an e-commerce style business, focusing on the residential market. You do see they do a great job. Anybody searching for custom wall murals is going to find their products, either through our paid channels or organic.
00:33:08:13 - 00:33:38:08
Andrew Miller
The challenge is, you know, a big and growing section of their customer base is B2B, right? They're they're designing, building hotels, office buildings, commercial spaces. And they want these custom wall murals for these spaces as well. But they're kind of being forced into an e-commerce experience. So opening with a landing page, and a couple of variants that we have tested to try to speak specifically to this B2B audience, and show them that these products are available.
00:33:38:08 - 00:33:59:18
Andrew Miller
In fact, there's a whole sales team at this company that that works with designers to to outfit commercial spaces, doctors offices, hotels, etc.. But this audience wasn't seeing what they needed to see in the paid ads or running in the e-commerce experience. Right? They want to talk to a human. They want to get custom clothes. They want to say, I need 50 of these things, not just one.
00:33:59:20 - 00:34:29:15
Andrew Miller
Yeah. So we experimented our hypothesis. Like any good scientists, our hypothesis is that a dedicated landing page for the B2B crowd is going to speak to their needs more, and make sure they know that there's a solution for them, within this product set. So we built out on unbalance a series of landing pages for testing to try to segment out this, this B2B audience and drive them to a landing page that looks like this, where right away, within a second or second and a half of landing on a page, you know you're in the right spot, right?
00:34:29:20 - 00:34:39:05
Andrew Miller
I'm a business or I'm a designer. I'm in the right flow here. Right? And I can see of of background visual of what appears to be, you know, maybe a medical office or some sort of commercial space with a waiting.
00:34:39:09 - 00:34:45:05
Ralph
I'm a developer. Like for something. I'm building a medical school office building like this speaks to.
00:34:45:05 - 00:34:47:17
Andrew Miller
Me, right? This is not a dining room. It's not a living room.
00:34:47:17 - 00:34:49:18
Lauren
You know, not a teenage dorm.
00:34:49:20 - 00:34:50:07
Andrew Miller
Exactly.
00:34:50:08 - 00:35:08:23
Lauren
Type of space. This is clearly professional. And as you even have it, later iterated while covering for businessmen, designers, business designs, ideas and trends. Like it's so relevant to that audience that if it's not relevant to, you're going to bounce right away and not send the positive signals of duration on page scroll depth, etc..
00:35:09:01 - 00:35:33:00
Andrew Miller
Absolutely. With, you know, Imax or performance max those platforms within Google Ads, it's even harder sometimes to segment out specific landing pages to different audiences. You know, Google doesn't necessarily know if somebody searches for custom wall murals as a keyword, which is one of the, you know, the high value, I volume keywords. If somebody searches for this, you know, Google may not necessarily know their intent right off the bat.
00:35:33:02 - 00:36:00:05
Andrew Miller
They don't know if they're searching for residential or business use. However, by feeding the algorithm different signals, you know, as this person may know, our site before, what else we know about their browsing behavior, what other audience attributes can we pull in that might suggest they're more likely to be a B2B buyer? And we can segment that out into a campaign or an ad group and drive traffic to this experience and the B2B landing page experience, we recognize that may catch, you know, some residential people, of course.
00:36:00:05 - 00:36:12:18
Andrew Miller
So we give them an out on this page, right. If you're interested in wall murals for business, great. I'm in the right spot. Whoops. I'm a residential buyer. I can click back to the regular experience. Right? I'm not going to get I'm not going to lose my spot.
00:36:13:17 - 00:36:33:21
Andrew Miller
I just have to click back, back, back and lose the thread. Tying in the offline conversions though, because, you know, for the B2B buyer, they're not going through an e-commerce experience. The importance of the data comes from two places. One, obviously you know, B2B buyers. There's a phone
number up here which we use call tracking through call rail to, you know, quantify the number.
00:36:33:23 - 00:36:58:07
Andrew Miller
Some calls we're getting track them back to the original traffic sources like Google ads or LinkedIn. And then obviously measure the quality of those calls. You know, do they convert or not. But of course, there's also a lead form option. When you scroll down the page or click any of the CTAs above the fold, there is also an email list form option that that routes to the appropriate sales team or sales person.
00:36:58:09 - 00:37:22:07
Andrew Miller
Based on a couple of other identifiers. So we give we give these B2B buyers, you know, two primary calls to action, one bailout if you're a residential user, but the value of the landing page and really, why, you know, a page like this designed with, you know, a high converting template, and again, our preferred platform is on bounce, but landing page like this eliminates distractions.
00:37:22:09 - 00:37:43:08
Andrew Miller
And one of the reasons I think that marketers aren't using landing pages enough is because it's technically easier, sometimes cheaper, to just throw up another page in your CMS or just add a WordPress page, or just drop them on our category page, or God forbid, a home page. But when you really customize that post, click experience on a landing page for a specific audience segment, you start to see some really powerful results.
00:37:43:10 - 00:37:47:01
Andrew Miller
So this is where we sell leads and value ROI skyrocket.
00:37:47:03 - 00:38:03:11
Ralph
So on this page here you've got I'm interested in wall murals for businesses on the left and then home on the right. If they click home, do they go to the home landing page or do they back click? What happens? They're just interested in that.
00:38:03:12 - 00:38:26:20
Andrew Miller
Okay. They are redirected back to the site, you know, to a specific category page for home. This is not a dedicated landing page on on bounce, but you can see the number of distractions that already, pop up in front of that user, literally and figuratively. Now I'm like, okay, well, I know I'm in the right spot, but I go to click through all these things and probably some cookie content banners, and it's easy to get distracted.
00:38:26:20 - 00:38:36:05
Andrew Miller
A landing page, a single focus, minimize distractions as much as we can, and focus the visitor as quickly as possible on the CTAs or calls to action that we want them to take.
00:38:36:05 - 00:38:56:04
Ralph
I know there was another page that you folks use prior to going to this page, which speaks to the fact that you also had to change the language on your ads as well, which we can touch on, but clearly two distinct ideal customer profiles here, and obviously with different leaves. I got to assume.
00:38:56:06 - 00:38:57:13
Lauren
Like, yeah.
00:38:57:15 - 00:39:00:02
Andrew Miller
The B2B buyer is a higher value, right?
00:39:00:02 - 00:39:00:22
Ralph
Oh, yeah.
00:39:01:01 - 00:39:04:17
Andrew Miller
Because they're typically buying in bulk or larger spaces.
00:39:04:19 - 00:39:18:13
Lauren
Yeah. It's like a franchise model. So they're buying in bulk or they own an entire hospital and they're doing three wings absolutely worth of stuff versus the individual like or even this here is the individual office. Like you could have 27 offices inside your medical center.
00:39:18:15 - 00:39:43:17
Andrew Miller
Right. So those are those B2B sales or typically higher value speaking in e-commerce language, the Roas can be significantly higher from one sale to the B2B segment. But if they don't, if they don't know you do B2B because you know you're not segmenting that audience in your campaigns and your landing pages, you're going to lose them. Or maybe best case scenario, before you have a dedicated landing pages, you're dropping them on this category page on your site, which by itself is not bad.
00:39:43:17 - 00:40:02:15
Andrew Miller
It's not terrible by any means, but it's it's distracting. There's a lot going on here. I'm kind of forced to choose and show that in choice a lot of times will, deter people or make them stop and think, and then they click back or they bounce. And that's not always the best experience. So we tested this variant.
00:40:02:17 - 00:40:34:09
Andrew Miller
We created multiple variants and variations of this page to try to speak to different types of audiences. You know, they more design focused esthetics or they you know, functional, are video on commercial or kind of family friendly, kid friendly spaces. So different landing pages. Speaking of that B2B crowd with different intents. And so at the end of the day, you know, the fun part is when we actually get to compare the before and after results in the case study, we were able to produce with this, and in partnership with this client, you know, showed the 300% increase in average order value.
00:40:34:09 - 00:40:50:07
Andrew Miller
Speaking again, in e-commerce terms, where they're used to, a B2B buyer is going to spend three times more. And then the Roas is higher simply because of these higher. And conversion rates are improved because they're getting a customized experience. So it's a win win for the brand and for their customer.
00:40:50:13 - 00:41:04:21
Lauren
Okay, so when you said earlier you said how much control you have over the post click experience and how you focus on that. This focus allowed you to generate massive amounts of new revenue at a third of the cost.
00:41:04:23 - 00:41:22:15
Andrew Miller
Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, because again, we're nerds, we love to geek out on the data and the philosophy, the science behind it compared to when we broke it down for the client. It's really interesting to see the before and after experiences that a visitor visitors having. Right. Obviously their default site experience or landing page experience is shorter, more concise.
00:41:22:15 - 00:41:45:13
Andrew Miller
Talking a little bit more about how we focused on the right calls to action and lead gen forms and B2B buyers are looking for, you know, sales contacts or quotes versus, you know, shop now by now, status. And then there's a whole other slew of metrics that we were able to compare before and after. And again, this is over a relatively short time period, but clients were thrilled, right?
00:41:45:13 - 00:41:49:15
Andrew Miller
Any time we get a case study and a testimonial out of something like this, it's transformative.
00:41:49:16 - 00:42:16:01
Ralph
The thing that I love about this is that there's going back to our part of our conversation with getting the right CRM data in, is that this is the literally the exact same product, but being sold in two completely different ways. We see this obviously all the time. We've got, you know, clients that are primarily in the B2C market, and then you just see this huge B2B order that comes in out of nowhere, like, oh, I'm going to buy 100 cases.
00:42:16:01 - 00:42:32:05
Ralph
We have a we have a case manufacturer. It's like, you know, you see onesies, twosies and all of a sudden you see like a hundred. I'm like, oh my God, where did that come from? So which lens create this? This case study lends credence to the fact that you guys need a dedicated business page, which we have not done yet, but we've been pushing for it.
00:42:32:07 - 00:42:55:22
Ralph
But they're making enough money on their own, so they're not worried about it. But the point is, is that there is a very big difference between the commercial buyer and the residential buyer, and all of that data is going to be different. Being pumped back into that individual campaign, I have to assume that you sorted these out or you stratified them out, or maybe you just focused on the B2B crowd in order to leverage that appointment.
00:42:55:22 - 00:43:06:16
Ralph
Sales qualified lead, and then ultimately the sale, which I would imagine isn't a, you know, isn't a long sales cycle. Probably not like selling a house, but it can't be extraordinarily long now.
00:43:06:16 - 00:43:34:17
Andrew Miller
But it still is an offline conversion in right cases. Right? Handled over the phone or through email. Right. Tying it back to Imax. So that's where I think marketers need to start to focus. Is with the homogenization of AI tools and Google ads or meta or any of the paid channels, you're going to get homogenous results. Our whole premise here is that using the value of your first party data, your industry knowledge, your ability to segment your audiences and mash them up for the right messaging, that's where you're going to stand out against competition.
00:43:34:17 - 00:43:40:09
Andrew Miller
Otherwise, you're just going to be locked in an upward cycle of CPCs and lower CTAs.
00:43:40:11 - 00:44:02:10
Ralph
And I think at the heart of this, I'm reiterating this just because I see this so often, it's not a marketing problem. This is a business problem. And the all of the stakeholders, my SEO will love the fact that I'm saying stakeholders because it's like a scrum term. All the stakeholders need to get aligned with this. And this is something that if you are a big business like marketing, is not beneath you.
00:44:02:11 - 00:44:24:00
Ralph
That's why most CEOs are involved in marketing to some degree or another, because it relates to the growth of the business in such a great degree. Like this is a huge differential, like when you made this discovery, like we're talking about two completely different clients here, two completely different customers for your business, which maybe they knew, maybe they didn't know, but they just didn't know how to piece together the strategy.
00:44:24:00 - 00:44:51:02
Ralph
And it brings together everything that we've talked about here on today's show to ultimately grow it and scale it. And it's got to be pretty satisfying. But my point is, is like the stakeholders need to get into the room and get involved in the marketing to a certain degree, because these are business metrics. At the end of the day that you're trying to shoot towards, not just marketing tactics and cool LPO analysis and UX design and everything, it's growing the business in a fundamentally major way.
00:44:51:02 - 00:44:53:16
Ralph
And you guys kicked butt on this, which is great.
00:44:53:18 - 00:45:12:00
Andrew Miller
Yeah. Thank you. We get that. That's that's a long, long term partnership for us. And with this particular client and it's borne fruit over and over again for both sides. It's a win win. And that's, that's what we look for in our partnerships. If somebody wants a quick win and they just want to drive more leads, yeah we can we can hack that together all day long.
00:45:12:00 - 00:45:25:02
Andrew Miller
But at the end of the day we we would lose the business or lose a relationship because the sales team is sitting there saying, yeah, the leads suck right. Cause we're not seeing a revenue left or I only care about the B2B buyers. What can you do for me there?
00:45:25:04 - 00:45:27:05
Ralph
So the marketing saying sales sucks.
00:45:27:05 - 00:45:28:15
Andrew Miller
By the way, it takes everybody.
00:45:28:18 - 00:45:37:10
Ralph
Going, interacting. That's true in operations and say why can't sales and marketing get along? We just want to like place orders or
00:45:37:12 - 00:45:54:15
Andrew Miller
Yeah. So our job as consultants is to try to come in and figure out where those, you know, solid reporting lines and the direct reporting lines exist within an organization. And if we can get everybody seated and figure out, you know, who really calls the shots, you know, sometimes there's a chief revenue officer or CMO that can really make change happen.
00:45:54:15 - 00:45:57:15
Andrew Miller
Other times we just have to go in and win hearts and minds with data.
00:45:57:18 - 00:45:58:23
Ralph
Oh.
00:45:59:01 - 00:45:59:06
Andrew Miller
Yeah.
00:45:59:06 - 00:46:00:02
Ralph
It's not an easy thing to do.
00:46:00:02 - 00:46:04:15
Andrew Miller
We don't always win, right? We have battle scars like everybody else, but at least we're fighting the right fight.
00:46:04:17 - 00:46:07:02
Lauren
You create anti fans when that happens.
00:46:07:04 - 00:46:12:08
Andrew Miller
Nobody likes to be told that their conversion rates are terrible or that the leads are terrible, but like.
00:46:12:10 - 00:46:14:04
Lauren
Or that no one cares about the brand.
00:46:14:06 - 00:46:15:20
Andrew Miller
Right? But you can't argue with the data.
00:46:15:22 - 00:46:17:11
Ralph
Yeah. The data, the data.
00:46:17:11 - 00:46:21:15
Lauren
Little line says it best when in line men lie, numbers don't lie.
00:46:21:17 - 00:46:23:12
Ralph
Lil Wayne said that.
00:46:23:14 - 00:46:37:00
Lauren
Yeah, it's in one of the songs in my battle. He's one of the best lyricists ever. How dare you come? I listened to your, love letter. Oh, okay. Phew. I was like Yvette Van Halen. Yes, that's. Yeah, I'm playing the guitar. So I'm learning your music.
00:46:37:02 - 00:46:59:16
Ralph
Yeah, I hate it. You really matured as a co-host here at the Fabric. Speaking of maturity, Andrew is like the most mature person in the room here with some amazing results. How can people get in touch with you? And obviously we're going to leave links for unbalance because it's sort of our default hint, hint. Best landing page, builder that we have here.
00:46:59:16 - 00:47:01:01
Ralph
So how can people contact you?
00:47:01:04 - 00:47:17:23
Andrew Miller
You know, workshop digital.com or find me on LinkedIn? I, I can nerd out with you guys on this stuff all day long. I love answering questions too. So reach out directly, shoot me an email or a LinkedIn message with what you're working on, and I can give you a quick set of eyes and maybe punch you in the right direction, even if we're not the right fit.
00:47:17:23 - 00:47:33:02
Ralph
Well, we appreciate you being on professional traffic here today. And if you were not watching this and we're not able to sort of visually see this, this is the reason why we have the YouTube channel. It's not just to get subscribers and make money off Google, which is pennies, by the way. We don't like hardly anything on this.
00:47:33:04 - 00:47:55:01
Ralph
The point is, is like that exemplifies the messaging that we've discussed here for the last 40 minutes or so. Go over to the YouTube channel, perpetual traffic.com/youtube. Look for Andrew Miller here and watch along at two minutes 30 and or so, and you'll understand exactly why we're so excited. And we're geeking out about this because we actually move the business forward, which is our whole goal here.
00:47:55:03 - 00:48:13:00
Ralph
And by the way, it's the whole goal of this show. Learn to help businesses do marketing the right way. So super appreciate you, coming on here today, Andrew, wherever you listen to podcast, just leave us a rating and review. It helps get this show out to a wider audience so we can teach people how to do marketing the way that we discussed it on today's show.
00:48:13:00 - 00:48:18:09
Ralph
So thank you so much for coming on Perpetual Traffic. Andrew Miller, you're welcome.
00:48:18:09 - 00:48:22:02
Andrew Miller
I'm looking forward to the live show in a couple weeks. And when we run into each other in San Diego.
00:48:22:06 - 00:48:42:13
Ralph
That's right, that's right. Yeah, we're at Saint and we're in San Diego at the same time. Like we got to get together. Yeah. So cool. All right. So on behalf of my amazing co-host Lauren Petrillo. So till next show. See you.
