Have you ever been in a negotiation and felt like you were just begging to close the deal? Oren Klaff, the master of persuasion and author of Pitch Anything, is back to show us how to take control of high-stakes business conversations.
We talk about the power of “status” in negotiations and how framing your offer makes all the difference. Oren breaks down the distinction between physical and cognitive status and how to leverage both to your advantage, all while keeping your confidence high and ego in check.
We also discuss how to create real desire in your prospects and clients, as well as how to handle those moments when you’re negotiating from a lower status. If you’re looking to up your negotiation game, Oren has some proven persuasion strategies you won’t want to miss.
In this episode:
04:00 The power of saying the quiet part out loud
08:56 How physical status influences negotiation outcomes
11:43 The danger of offering too many choices in sales
15:11 How to negotiate deals when power shifts
17:54 Establishing genuine desire in your prospects
22:17 Negotiating with high-level decision-makers
28:33 Hot cognition vs cold cognition in persuasion
34:00 Determining a prospect’s viability of closing a deal
38:33 Final thoughts and actionable takeaways
Listen to the Previous Episode with Oren Klaff: https://perpetualtraffic.com/podcast/episode-732-flip-the-script-a-masterclass-on-pitching-anything-with-oren-klaff/
Buy Oren Klaff’s Books:
Flip The Script: https://a.co/d/hTcp9lP
Pitch Anything: https://a.co/d/fRAqAby
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READ THE TRANSCRIPT:
Stop Losing Clients! Master Saying the Quiet Part Out Loud to Close Deals
00:00:00:00 – 00:00:06:07
Oren
The reason deals don’t happen is because desire hasn’t been built. And so what happens is we.
00:00:06:07 – 00:00:07:21
Ralph
Have the king of persuasion.
00:00:07:22 – 00:00:20:16
Oren
We have to decide in this meeting we have 30 minutes to figure out, are you Home Depot or are we in a relationship you have to give people. As we were saying earlier, a real choice. I’m not going there to beg.
00:00:20:21 – 00:00:24:23
Lauren
But how do you do it when someone shifts their position of power so you’re already in a relationship with them?
00:00:25:00 – 00:00:29:19
Oren
The key there is framing it in.
00:00:29:21 – 00:00:38:21
Ralph
Hello and welcome to the Professional Traffic Podcast. This is your host, Ralph Burns, founder and CEO of tier 11, alongside my amazing co-host.
00:00:38:23 – 00:00:41:11
Lauren
Lauren E Petrillo, the founder of Mongoose Media.
00:00:41:13 – 00:01:03:06
Ralph
So glad you joined us here today. If you’re a VP of marketing, Director of marketing, and or a persuasion person, somebody who’s persuading, whether you’re sales with your marketing, yes, we have the king of persuasion. I’m just anointing him this because we’ve had a lot of persuasion people on this show. But this guy is on for the second time within a month.
00:01:03:07 – 00:01:18:15
Ralph
Really. He actually asked to come back on, which we’re still kind of flabbergasted. I come on our little show, although we are kind of a big marketing podcast, we have got orange cloth back on a perpetual traffic for show number two. Welcome back to Petey Orange.
00:01:18:15 – 00:01:34:12
Oren
I so thank you. Yeah. And the reason I like coming on the show and wanting to come a second time is I, you know, I get on shows in there go and I go here or clap here. I’m very excited to introduce him. I sold million copies of Pitch Anything. So, Oren, why did you write the book? Hey, are we are we gonna have a podcast?
00:01:34:12 – 00:01:51:04
Oren
You one. Okay. All right. Hey, guys. I’m gonna. I’ll just go ahead and take this over. Since you don’t have any quit once you run through another 1 or 2 questions. Right? Let’s just let’s just see if that was just. You’re, like, tripping over yourself. What are your other questions? Right. What do you think has changed today since when you wrote the book?
00:01:51:06 – 00:02:06:16
Oren
Okay. That’s two. Right? Yeah. You’ve seen American Idol that I like. Let’s see what Simon Cowell says. What’s your third question? You know, what advice would you give a young person starting out today? I’m right. All right, I’m taking over this show. All right, all right, guys, let’s get clear.
00:02:06:16 – 00:02:08:14
Ralph
You haven’t read my damn books. Yeah.
00:02:08:15 – 00:02:13:08
Oren
Clear the. Clear the deck. So. Right. You can’t.
00:02:13:10 – 00:02:23:08
Ralph
That is. No the truth. That is not this show. Well, I guess that’s cool. Now we kind of break the mold. We actually do research, and we actually like our guests. So we want our guests to be.
00:02:23:08 – 00:02:35:20
Lauren
Oh, no, you’re the. You’re the only six star review I’ve given on Goodreads this entire year for any business book. I was like the Johnny Thing five star review, flipped the script solid, says sorry to you, and you even had a hidden chapter.
00:02:35:22 – 00:02:52:08
Oren
Wow. Yeah. It’s funny. Lawrence introduction I was, speaking at a conference. I was in the back, and the guy I know very well I had this is called Sam. It’s his name. And, he’s doing an introduction. I hadn’t spoken yet. Big conference. He goes, hey, I would like to bring up here quickly introduce a very, very good friend of mine.
00:02:52:11 – 00:03:12:07
Oren
We we’ve known each other for many years. He’s helped me out in so many situations. This is somebody you can rely on in every like if you call them in the middle of night, he would answer the phone and come do anything you needed. This is one of my. And I’m standing up and walking halfway down the aisle Jim Rose, everybody don’t know.
00:03:12:09 – 00:03:18:07
Oren
Diving, diving into it for a seat. Are you saying.
00:03:18:09 – 00:03:19:07
Ralph
It’s just stretching, my love?
00:03:19:07 – 00:03:23:08
Lauren
I’m like, yes. Yep. Oh, that’s so good.
00:03:23:10 – 00:03:24:22
Oren
Oh, my God.
00:03:25:00 – 00:03:32:10
Ralph
That’s so bad. Oh. Yeah. Well, well, that said, Lauren, you’re leading this podcast here today.
00:03:32:12 – 00:03:34:06
Lauren
This is let’s see how long that’s going to last.
00:03:34:06 – 00:03:38:08
Ralph
Let’s look at Lauren and Orange. Well orange is really leading the podcast. Let’s look at our Lauren.
00:03:38:08 – 00:03:39:23
Lauren
Our got the frame here.
00:03:40:01 – 00:03:44:04
Ralph
And anyway so you can just lob the first question here because. So the.
00:03:44:04 – 00:03:45:05
Lauren
First question.
00:03:45:07 – 00:03:49:09
Ralph
Lob the first question ask. And I think yeah why did you.
00:03:49:09 – 00:03:50:04
Lauren
Write a dairy.
00:03:50:06 – 00:03:53:12
Ralph
Pitch. Anything like that question. Yeah. Don’t ask that one.
00:03:53:14 – 00:03:56:15
Oren
Yeah. Just and you think you just answered.
00:03:56:15 – 00:03:57:07
Lauren
No pressure.
00:03:57:07 – 00:04:17:00
Oren
And you think you know the answer I change the question. So, look, I flew to Italy since I saw you guys last, and yesterday. You worked with a very large company there. They have a new CEO from private equity. And all the humming in Heine is that, you know, he’s just making it just about money. Relationships are out the door.
00:04:17:00 – 00:04:22:14
Oren
You know, you get what you pay for, all your bills are due immediately. And that’s not.
00:04:22:14 – 00:04:23:09
Lauren
Very Italian.
00:04:23:11 – 00:04:42:05
Oren
Not, you know, discounts. No relationship, no dinners. It’s just about the money because of the tariffs and everything, the US, there’s pressure everywhere. I go into that meaning literally with shotguns on both hips. You know those, those like short ones. When I say literally it means like, you know, figuratively. Ready to I’m.
00:04:42:05 – 00:04:44:06
Lauren
Somebody you share a cowboy style.
00:04:44:08 – 00:05:01:17
Oren
Loaded to bear. So we get in the car with Jim, and my team is there and his team is there. He’s got three people. There is CFO, head of accounting. You know, my team is there. So this is like hostage negotiation 101. Everybody’s there and I go, guys, I need you all to clean the room. It’s just me and his name.
00:05:01:17 – 00:05:20:14
Oren
Is it. So just call him Ferrari. Ferrari’s in his name in Ferrari here. Okay. So I’ve already cleared the room. That, like, really heightens the tension. And what we need from them is unique technologies, right? We need you because, but they come up with the technology and they want to sell it to all of their clients.
00:05:20:16 – 00:05:38:13
Oren
Right? But we want the unique technology. So we’re we’re special. So they come with these technologies and they go, Ferrari, listen, if if you are just Home Depot to me and I just walk in, right. And I can just buy drills and I can just buy saws and I can just buy the stuff. And then I got to go back in the market and compete with every other contractor out there.
00:05:38:15 – 00:05:59:00
Oren
And that is all it is, is you’re just a big Home Depot. To me, that is a very different situation than what I need. And or and why you say this. Why are you talk like this? You know, we got to decide. We have to decide in this meeting. We have 30 minutes to figure out. Are you Home Depot or are we in a relationship?
00:05:59:02 – 00:06:30:08
Oren
And he was are. And why are you talk like this? But the point is. Right. You have to give people, as we were saying earlier, a real choice. I’m not going there to beg. Right. And so when you think about status, you cannot fly 7000 miles across the world, go to a meeting in somebody else’s, you know, in a different country, in somebody else’s building, and then getting there to do the things that you could do on a zoom call, which is negotiate a contract.
00:06:30:10 – 00:06:47:07
Oren
If you go to that meeting, the only play you have is you’re either going to, as I said last time, you’re either drinking. This is the best way to remember it. You’re either drinking 13 beers with us or you’re drinking 13 beers against us.
00:06:47:09 – 00:06:51:10
Lauren
I wish you would have said limoncello for them specifically. Like the fruity sucker.
00:06:51:10 – 00:07:01:10
Ralph
All right. He was so like, you knew this. You had done your you had had conversations with them and they were all about the money. And you’re like, wait a second, I’ve got to reframe this whole thing. And that’s how you went into it.
00:07:01:12 – 00:07:21:07
Oren
So this, this is that you have to think about the layers of status going in the conversations. Right? If you have flown to meet them, it’s 18 hours at $7,000. You’re staying in a hotel like you have exerted. They know you’ve exerted a ton of energy to come there. Right? And and then you go to the media and you’re meeting at a senior level.
00:07:21:12 – 00:07:42:07
Oren
You cannot do the things in that meeting that you could have done on a zoom call that is low status. The the what you discuss at a meeting is relative to how much effort the the parties have put to go to that meeting. I’m going to give you another way to look at this. But this you have to understand status.
00:07:42:07 – 00:08:04:15
Oren
If you flew to San Francisco from New York, right. And then you go to two Embarcadero and you waited in the lobby and you read a four year old Sports Illustrated, you finally go to the meeting. The meeting sort of 15 minutes late. You have exerted an enormous amount of energy to come to that meeting, and they know that they have walked 11ft from their office, so they have nothing to lose.
00:08:04:17 – 00:08:25:19
Oren
And you have if, if, if that mean goes five minutes. Hey, look, I don’t know why you came into empathy, but right where we started, everybody go home. You’ve expended two days and, you know, $10,000, an enormous amount of effort. They’ve expanded 11 minutes walking from their office. Right. So there is these status about imbalances exist at every level.
00:08:25:19 – 00:08:40:17
Oren
And I think you have to recognize it. And the conversation has to be at the level of resetting the status imbalance. So the lower you are in status coming in because of the circumstance, the higher the stakes have to be at the meeting.
00:08:40:23 – 00:08:57:08
Ralph
Got it makes sense. So simultaneously you’re I mean I’m interjecting here because this is Lauren’s interview, but I guess it doesn’t. You’re you’re eight. You’re exerting status, eradicating neediness, you’re establishing frame control, sort of all at the same time.
00:08:57:10 – 00:09:03:04
Oren
I think what I’m introducing here is physical, which we haven’t talked about before, is physical status.
00:09:03:07 – 00:09:03:15
Ralph
Yeah.
00:09:03:15 – 00:09:22:07
Oren
As opposed to just cognitive. Right. Who you are, what you are, what you offer, what you’re capable of. I’ll give you another example. I get on a call with the New York Bank on a $30 million financing. Right. So I get on the call, I’m the private equity firm that invested in the in our portfolio company. We have a CEO of that firm.
00:09:22:07 – 00:09:43:12
Oren
But he’s new. So I’m functionally like the CEO. He’s the CEO. The financier goes I’m uncomfortable. Like who’s the CEO? I mean, I’m CEO, but he’s like, we’re co-CEO. He he’s been here three days, right? He’s been he’s been shadow work in the company for a year. He’s been on the job for three days. Like I’m transitioning my title, but he’s all the bit like he goes, I’m uncomfortable with this.
00:09:43:17 – 00:10:07:04
Oren
Okay, now we have a problem, right? Because I either have to allow him to be uncomfortable with something that is perfectly normal, or I have to explain it to him, mansplain to him how you have a co-CEO and continue having like this is and frame me is not normal or the road that I took. Right. And Yogi Bear said, when you come to a fork in the road, take it.
00:10:07:06 – 00:10:19:05
Oren
And I said, thank you. He said, what do you mean? I go, well, thanks. It was nice talking to you. He was. What do you mean? It was nice talking to you. I’m like, hey man.
00:10:19:07 – 00:10:21:06
Ralph
We just we wanted to work on it.
00:10:21:08 – 00:10:34:17
Oren
Customers, investors, relationships, people who are comfortable with us, like us, like what we’re doing. And you’re saying you’re uncomfortable, so we don’t want to work with you because you’re uncomfortable.
00:10:34:21 – 00:10:36:09
Ralph
Oh, my God, I love it.
00:10:36:11 – 00:10:37:14
Oren
So if you that.
00:10:37:14 – 00:10:38:13
Lauren
Girl, they.
00:10:38:15 – 00:10:58:18
Oren
Like my job, you know, is to give you the exciting things we’re doing, introduce you to the people, tell you how our plan is working, what value we deliver, what you would if you invested, what security you would get. Right. We want you to be happy. What good is it if I use all my superpowers to convince you to invest in this company?
00:10:58:21 – 00:11:18:04
Oren
And you remain uncomfortable? It’s going to be such a hype. So if you’re uncomfortable after I’ve known you for 11 minutes, then I am going to do everybody a favor and go away, okay? I’m going to like, just, you know, if this is a video game, I go, if this is a video game, I’m just going to step in front of the bullets, take the shot, and I’m just not going to respond.
00:11:18:07 – 00:11:34:23
Oren
Do you guys can wait around me? Like, what happened? Oren? I think he decided not to respond and that he goes, he goes, no, you have to fight for your deal. And I am not fighting, I am loving, I want to be in a loving relationship with my customers, my partners, my investors. And he was, okay, let’s forget it.
00:11:34:23 – 00:12:17:02
Oren
Let’s move on. That well, you have to, right? He goes, okay, I get it. There’s two CEOs. Let’s move on. This is you can call it a take away, but there’s no risk in offering people two choices in which the second choice, if they choose it and then we talked about this last time, indicate that you were never going to get money out of them, give them two choices to move forward at a high stakes level, it seems like you are giving autonomy, but if they choose the second choice, it just means they’re never going to give you money, right?
00:12:17:04 – 00:12:33:09
Lauren
So you just saved yourself countless trips. The idea of you going back okay, fine. You you lost the full travel day, San Francisco to New York. You lost all those pieces. But versus being three months later and six figure then to a relationship that was uncomfortable from the get go, you’re establishing that was the honest.
00:12:33:09 – 00:12:52:18
Oren
Choice, the honest. If you give people a choice and they take it to exit the deal, not do business with you, you know, continue with their ridiculous, you know, pricing demands and everything like that. Then we talked a little bit about this before. If you’re doing a deal with Microsoft and Microsoft goes we need a discount, right. Why do you need a discount.
00:12:52:18 – 00:13:09:07
Oren
Well because we buy a lot of stuff. And, you know, we could be you know, we could be a $3 million account for you. And we we need a discount. Right. And you go, listen, if I do business with you and you’re constantly grinding on me because you have power as the more powerful partner, right? That just doesn’t work.
00:13:09:07 – 00:13:38:15
Oren
We will never be. You will not be a profitable account. So if you if your position is we’re Microsoft, we get discounts because we can buy, you know, a lot and you know by volume and you say we are constantly going to be demanding, a lot of service, a lot of volume and force you into a low margin or low price position, then just tell me that so I can make a decision.
00:13:38:17 – 00:13:49:11
Oren
If I’m in a vendor category where you have lots of choices, right? And you are constantly going to be repricing, grinding, and you view this as a commodity, say we view you as a commodity.
00:13:49:11 – 00:14:14:10
Ralph
You know, what I love about this approach is that you’re saying the things that every salesperson thinks, but never really says they’re thinking in the back of their mind. They’re like, screw this guy. You know what I mean? Like, are screw Microsoft, like, I don’t want to have to grovel, but my job is to grovel and to give them a discount because they’re Microsoft or in the case of the Italian that you are dealing with Mr. Ferrari, I assume it was a mr..
00:14:14:10 – 00:14:26:12
Ralph
But you did the exact opposite of what the traditional salesperson would do. So, well, before we actually hit record here, we talked about frame control is limiting choices by to the buyer by being honest.
00:14:26:13 – 00:14:57:12
Oren
Limiting to yes, say the quiet part out loud. That is the key for today. This is the one takeaway. Say the quiet part out loud. Nobody’s going to taser you. Nobody’s going to frag you. Nobody’s going to start crying right? Say what you’re thinking, but leave the words that start with a f s the, right. Leave those out.
00:14:57:14 – 00:15:08:12
Ralph
That and take away. Holy crap. Like that’s it. Like that’s like you distilled both books down until like, because that’s the essence of the whole idea here is really.
00:15:08:12 – 00:15:09:23
Lauren
Is, this I’ll be just.
00:15:10:01 – 00:15:12:08
Ralph
By cutting through the crap at the same time.
00:15:12:10 – 00:15:31:12
Lauren
But how do you do it when someone shifts their position of power, so you’re already in a relationship with them, and then whether there’s a new, CEO coming in. Right. So it was your co-CEO who’s establishing a different change of narrative or a son who’s taking on as the new leadership, and they’re invoking a new change of environment.
00:15:31:14 – 00:15:52:01
Oren
It’s reframing the new change as goofy. Hey, guys, this is cool. Like, I get it, you’re coming in. We didn’t talk about this last time, so be quick with this. You’re coming in. You’re the new guy. You got to establish authority. This is the quiet part that everybody knows you’re coming in, right? You’re new to this position. You have to be taken seriously.
00:15:52:01 – 00:16:13:22
Oren
You have to show that you’re serious. You have to show your people like you rule heavy like the crown. And I get it. And I will work with you. But I need, like, I will help you look good to your team. I’ll concede 5% will roll over. For 90 days. You go see motherfuckers. This is how you own a, you know, a customer coming in the customer and taking advantage of us.
00:16:14:00 – 00:16:39:18
Oren
This I will help you look good to your team. But you have to tell me, is this just the optics of you coming in and asserting control, or are you really trying to clip our account in perpetuity? Right. If you need my help, I will help you get this done. But if you’re actually just trying to reset our relationship, then we have to talk about going different ways.
00:16:39:20 – 00:17:02:03
Oren
What is this is this theatrical and optics and I’m helping you or you really trying to cause us frictional, damage, you know, on a relationship that I built with your family and your company for five years. Just tell me which one it is so I can understand what to do from my side. The key there is framing it in two different options right.
00:17:02:07 – 00:17:17:22
Oren
And and you see what I did there? Learn I turned it around to I will help you. And that’s the set. So you want to say the choir part out loud and you want to put yourself in a position of, you know, I will bend and exert effort to help you, even though I need something from you.
00:17:18:00 – 00:17:36:05
Lauren
I mean, I feel like, but rather saying that as a sales people, you’re saying the things that aren’t being told. But I actually think it’s more of like your team. It’s. How often have you had have you brought a team underneath you where you’ve taken on clients you know you shouldn’t have, or you’re working with projects that are way beyond the scope and your team is one saying like, why don’t you stand up for yourself?
00:17:36:05 – 00:17:50:22
Lauren
Or like, why don’t you make it clear, like, stop bending over and showing your underside to them because they’re going to take it every single time. I know that the salespeople will always have that, but I feel more often than not, it’s a team that has to feel the consequences of whatever you did when you let them down.
00:17:50:22 – 00:17:54:23
Lauren
By changing your relationship of what you’re going to do on their behalf.
00:17:54:23 – 00:18:14:01
Oren
Maybe this will help put in context for people. If you raise money, what you’ll find is 6,070% of the money will come in as you’re closing the round. Right? Because as people start to see, I mean, the scarcity, the deadline, I mean, it’s no different than a may day sale, Thanksgiving Day sale. Right? But I,
00:18:14:03 – 00:18:20:14
Lauren
Made a sale. That was an interesting one. I haven’t seen the a sale come up in quite a while, and.
00:18:20:16 – 00:18:22:15
Ralph
It’s big in Russia.
00:18:22:17 – 00:18:33:08
Lauren
Okay. I was like, oh, you can get away with Singles Day or, you know, which is huge in Asia, Saudi, which is massive in, in Italy. But Mayday, okay, let’s go for it.
00:18:33:10 – 00:19:03:18
Oren
All right. You know that’s what they do it in the homeland. All right. Yeah. So, when when we raise capital, when you’re when you announce the round is closing and people actually see it going away, then they decide to invest. It’s right. So same with, you know, with the sale. So until somebody actually sees that you’re serious about the fork in the road is approaching and you’re going to take one of two choices, I think where salespeople mess this up is they go, there’s nine choices or three choices or seven choices or 17 choices.
00:19:03:23 – 00:19:26:03
Oren
And it’s a complicated decision matrix. Nobody can figure out, right? You know, it’s ride or die. That’s the left lane right together forever or, All right, you may have to cut this part. I’m like, hey, this is great. Lauren, let’s, this is great. Let’s let’s go a different directions to to cover more territory.
00:19:26:08 – 00:19:30:20
Oren
Right. I’ll break right. Okay. And then you go fuck yourself.
00:19:30:22 – 00:19:44:20
Lauren
Yeah. Yes, please. I mean, that’s what you really want to tell someone like, I can do this for you, or you can figure this all the fuck out on your own, because I’m not going to help you if you’re going to engage in this way moving forward. I mean, that’s an aggressive one. And as I said, I’d leave out some of those other words.
00:19:44:20 – 00:19:47:16
Lauren
But that’s what you’re saying in a nutshell. But maybe the Canadian way.
00:19:47:16 – 00:19:49:04
Oren
Of the tail the same.
00:19:49:04 – 00:19:50:14
Lauren
Likely to look up another partner.
00:19:50:16 – 00:20:25:08
Oren
That here’s what salespeople are doing, whether it’s money or sales. They’re saying, there is more room. There’s more optionality for you to negotiate, for you to wait. And what, week salespeople have taught your clients, what week salespeople have taught your investors is that if they wait, you will negotiate against yourself. So here’s a couple things. Say the quiet thing out loud and be one of the 100 people that will actually say what is going on in this situation.
00:20:25:10 – 00:20:50:13
Oren
Number two is convincingly and be kind, you know, be polite, be friendly. You know, be there. But convincingly demonstrate that you are not going to negotiate against yourself because, especially in enterprise sales in the, in B2B, the buyers have learned they, you know, they don’t need to upgrade their accounting software like today. They’re looking at doing it.
00:20:50:13 – 00:21:10:23
Oren
And then you’re very excited about making the sale right. And so they’re going, hey, the longer I wait, the longer I look over stuff, the more sales will come up, the more the price will go down, the more this guy will negotiate against himself. So you would have got to firm up. This is what I will do. Listen, if you are saying that you are, we’re talking about upgrading the accounting software, right?
00:21:10:23 – 00:21:26:01
Oren
We’re going back and forth and we’re, you know, we’re at the point where I’ve got some time in this. You’ve got some time in this, like we got to decide, you know, are we doing this? So if you’re saying to me, hey, this is a 90 to 120 day decision and you have to tell me because I’m out.
00:21:26:03 – 00:21:43:09
Oren
I don’t know what our pricing is. I don’t know what upgrades we are, where I don’t know how busy I am. I don’t with my team 120 days, 90, 220 days is not a timeframe I can function in. And we did. You know, I’m going to kick you over to Kirsten. She’s going to work with you. You know, she’s my new intern.
00:21:43:09 – 00:22:04:14
Oren
She’s going to give you the updates. Stay in touch with you. You have everything you need. But you if you’re in a 120 day decision period, you don’t have me. My decision period, where I am most active, most relevant, give the most amount of value is a 30. So just are you a 0 to 30 day? Are you at 30 to, you know, 90 day.
00:22:04:14 – 00:22:18:01
Oren
Are you 90 to 120. Just tell me who you really are and then will make sure you have the resources you need to support yourself. I’m here to help you, but you have to tell me who you really are.
00:22:18:03 – 00:22:36:20
Ralph
Lauren, I thought you were going down the route of. Because we’re both in service based businesses where we sell, and then we have to fulfill. And we are constantly like we both have either account managers, client success managers who then manage the client. And it’s constantly a lot of this going on. Yeah. It’s like, hey, you know, they’re like, oh, I want to go this way.
00:22:36:20 – 00:22:50:06
Ralph
Like, you know, we fired a client because they say we just want to do all Google from here on. And I’m like, that’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. I came on the call and I pulled an orange cliff. I said, you can’t do that because you’re going to bankrupt your business. I’m telling you right now, don’t fucking do it.
00:22:50:06 – 00:23:05:20
Ralph
And I actually use the F-bomb on the call. Similar, like maybe I said, freaking. But anyway, the point is, it’s like I was like, you’re going to. We know what’s best. I know what’s best. This team that’s on this call, it knows what’s best. And they ended up staying with us for another 3 to 4 months. The business model was kind of crappy.
00:23:05:20 – 00:23:26:08
Ralph
But anyway, the point was, is like we’ve we exerted ourselves and said the thing that nobody wanted to say. So when I think of your strategy, I don’t necessarily think about it as a front end persuasion. Sales and or marketing strategy. I think of it as like a way of like to approach human behavior, especially if you’re in the services based industry, like we are thoughts.
00:23:26:08 – 00:23:44:17
Oren
So I think and in that situation, I like that. I wonder if you come up against it, you can try this framing that I use, which is, Lauren, I am on your team and I am not allowing you to do that. So as long as I am here and I. And I’m making decisions, which I am you.
00:23:44:18 – 00:23:49:10
Oren
I’m not allowing you to do that. Here is the plan forward.
00:23:49:12 – 00:23:55:05
Ralph
Different way of approaching it, coming out of poor client centric as opposed to like I know it’s best, which.
00:23:55:07 – 00:23:56:21
Oren
It’s probably yes it is. Well, it.
00:23:56:21 – 00:23:59:12
Ralph
Worked, but it didn’t work that great.
00:24:00:07 – 00:24:21:05
Lauren
It’s it’s I’m not. But when you tell someone I’m not allowing you to do that, you’re saying I am not going to allow you to do that? Yes. And then I just for me, I’ve come across where they will lie to themselves, into those around them because they’ll be persuaded by the next shiny object. TikTok video or conference that they attend where someone has said, no, this is the end all, be all.
00:24:21:05 – 00:24:35:17
Lauren
And so it’s like there’s a handle and like, I’m not going to allow you to distract yourself. Like I think I mean, in a personal example where someone’s like, I want to dive into this channel, like, why would you invest a test budget when there’s still so much opportunity in this current existing channel? I’m just being very hyper specific for us.
00:24:35:17 – 00:24:36:17
Lauren
So, I want to.
00:24:36:18 – 00:25:00:03
Oren
But then want to attack that. I want to attack that. Okay. We go, we have this, factory that manufactures engineered quartz countertops. And I used to go to the shows where everybody from China and India and Pakistan and Malaysia and Vietnam and, you know, wherever Spain, Brazil, they show their their slabs. These are 1,200 pound slabs at the show.
00:25:00:05 – 00:25:22:12
Oren
Right. And these slabs, are beautiful. Right. And then I go back to our technology people. They have the shit Ferrari. And I say, My God, I just went to the show like the Indians, you know, we’re Italian. We have the Italian technology. We have the thousand years. The Indians are making these slabs like you want them. It’s so beautiful.
00:25:22:17 – 00:25:49:05
Oren
You want to cry? Like, how do they have all this technology? And we’re getting the second rate that it goes on and on. And anybody can make one of anything. So they make what happens at these shows. They make they spend a week making a one off. That is not doable in scale. So just to give you a vision, like they might spend two weeks hand layering a single slab right.
00:25:49:07 – 00:26:16:22
Oren
Two weeks. Yeah. In manufacturing, to be profitable, you have to make a 1,200 pound slab every 90s. So it they do it to hook you in, like, look at this beautiful thing that we make tomorrow. Yes, but it’s not doable in scale. So I think, you know, when, when people get that shiny object syndrome, it is the same thing is when marketing agencies come in and they go, listen, we’re going to run a campaign for you, right?
00:26:16:22 – 00:26:40:12
Oren
We guarantee you it’s ten value pairs, $10,000. We guarantee you that will make you that $10,000 back. Right. Or you pay nothing because they can skim whatever goofy thing they’re doing against your list. They can skim the cream off the top and make the ten grand back. But their campaign and then you hire them, you know, for six months because, hey, you paid them ten grand.
00:26:40:13 – 00:26:42:15
Oren
Yeah, but but they did.
00:26:42:15 – 00:26:44:21
Lauren
They just took it from your email and, you know.
00:26:44:23 – 00:27:07:19
Oren
They just they just did the creepiest copy, you know, something unsustainable. And they made ten grand or a hundred grand or a million grand or whatever it is. Right. You know, in a one campaign that is not scalable. So I think when that is the reframe of, look, anybody can show you something once anybody can show you something that will work once against your list.
00:27:07:22 – 00:27:31:20
Oren
But but beyond that, you know, that’s a the proverbial lunch, right. Million dollar lunch. Right, is so great. You did $1 million in a month, but you sold, you know, how to walk a dog in a cat. You know, how to build a dog and cat walking business in your own neighborhood? You know, overnight, you sold that course to everybody on earth who wants it.
00:27:31:22 – 00:27:34:04
Lauren
Right? Your time has been tapped out.
00:27:34:06 – 00:27:49:19
Oren
Yeah, your your tam has been tapped out. You’re Sam Tam. Tom, Sam, Sam is gone. And everybody wanted that course because you spent six months launching that campaign. Yeah. You know, everybody who wanted dog flavored toothpaste has now bought it, and there’s nothing left.
00:27:50:00 – 00:27:58:05
Lauren
Dog flavored toothpaste is like a Korean specialty or something like your tasting dog. Seaweed toothpaste for dogs.
00:27:58:06 – 00:27:58:17
Ralph
I wake up.
00:27:58:21 – 00:28:13:09
Oren
I feel like my dog burger for lunch. I feel like you just invented a, a form of framing, which is like what? When somebody calls you on something, they’re like, well, it frequently happens in North Korea. It’s like it’s unverifiable.
00:28:13:11 – 00:28:15:16
Ralph
They pay more attention. Just.
00:28:15:18 – 00:28:19:22
Oren
When did you ever see that? It’s very popular in North Korea.
00:28:20:00 – 00:28:32:04
Lauren
Yes. And it started first in Cuba and then really took off in Zimbabwe. But the North Korean market has latched on to this. And I think they’re really moving. They’re really into taking this global.
00:28:32:06 – 00:28:41:21
Ralph
Movement, a lot of product before we go. We’ve only got limited time left. I’ve got to ask you about when and how do you insert hot and cold cognitions.
00:28:41:21 – 00:28:42:17
Oren
So sure.
00:28:42:19 – 00:28:58:13
Ralph
Back to pitch anything. We haven’t really touched on this all that much like the norepinephrine versus the dopamine. Like when do you do it. How do you kind of like that was one of the questions this is very self-serving was whether like because of the like when you actually do it, they do one before the other. What are your thoughts on it?
00:28:58:14 – 00:28:59:21
Ralph
I don’t think we hit on it. Right.
00:28:59:21 – 00:29:20:15
Oren
The first of us. Yeah, I think I think this is very important. So when but I think people intuitively do this backwards. Right? When people ask them for data, they get into selling mode because they feel defensive, right? Yes. And when people and people want to know what’s the answer.
00:29:20:17 – 00:29:24:16
Ralph
They’re asking technical questions. You respond, you’re like, oh, well, I got that. Yeah.
00:29:24:22 – 00:29:58:21
Oren
I want to make sure when you give your cold cognition your cold data, it comes without color, narrative and exposition. And even I have to work on this. So we’re going to get when to do cold and hot cognition. But when you eventually come around to seeing what it costs, how long it is, what the contract is, what the terms are, you know, what you get, how much is upfront, how much is paid along the way, and what the, you know, cancel terms are.
00:29:58:21 – 00:30:40:17
Oren
It can’t come with with color and exposition. When you give people their cold data, they want it cold. They want all the data delivered at once. It bookended without, explanation. When you start explaining the data, then people get very, skeptical about the information that you gave. They want it cold. So the the hot cognition, you the reason deals don’t happen is because desire hasn’t been built into what happens is and and Lauren, we talked about this beginning.
00:30:40:22 – 00:31:03:07
Oren
People move into the data before there is desire until somebody wants what you have. And this is where we talk a little bit about the box. So the way that I think about it is you have a box with your cold data in it, and what the buyer wants is for you to open that box so they can see the goodies inside of it.
00:31:03:09 – 00:31:04:16
Oren
You keep the lid on that.
00:31:04:16 – 00:31:06:02
Ralph
By all kinds of questions.
00:31:06:07 – 00:31:30:21
Oren
Yeah, all kinds of questions. Look, I have I have and this is the this is where entry comes from. I have what you want. I have the data I have the pricing. Right. Suspend disbelief. You want to know what it costs. It costs what you think it costs. We are a real firm okay. Like you, you walked into a Home Depot.
00:31:30:22 – 00:31:52:23
Oren
You said, I don’t want a Samsung fridge. I want, you know, glass front. You know how much a Samsung fridge costs? You want the not not the Viking, but the, what’s the the, the super $15,000 one. Yes. So guess what the $15,000 fridge costs. Go ahead. Lauren. Guess. Yes. Correct.
00:31:52:23 – 00:32:05:00
Lauren
$15,000. Right. So, like, what time’s the 3:00 parade? Worst question that Disney ever. Okay, so how much the 15,000 you establish the coldest off. You’re like you don’t get. If I have found it.
00:32:05:00 – 00:32:28:21
Oren
I have the information you want. Like when we can start, when the kickoff date is what it costs. But you it costs what you think it costs the kickoff. Like all that stuff. When I. When I show you the value proposition. Right. You’re going to go. Yeah, that’s what I thought. Because we’re a, you know, we’re an American firm in your market serving customers like you, solving problems that you need like, but so let’s let’s suspend disbelief for a minute.
00:32:28:21 – 00:32:41:12
Oren
It costs what you think it costs. You’re gonna be able to negotiate a little bit. I’m going to roll over because look at me, you know, I want the account. Say the quiet part out loud. This is a new account. My job is to bring in accounts. I have a quota. Yes. You’re going to be able to leverage me a little bit.
00:32:41:16 – 00:33:04:22
Oren
No, I’m not going to roll over on 10% discount. Yes, we’re going to like all that is going to happen. But I don’t like what do you want? Okay. What do you want to have happen. Do you want somebody to come in. You have budget, right? Do you have budget set aside. You want somebody to come in and take this over, make it happen for you, right?
00:33:04:22 – 00:33:29:20
Oren
Hands off or are you really a do it yourself for. And you go, if I can get the full service one at the do it yourself price, I would take it. What do you want? Right. What are you excited about happening? You know me. We’ve gone to the basic pitch, right? What is your vision for what we do for you?
00:33:29:20 – 00:33:46:15
Oren
Where are you in the process? What do you want to make happen? Okay, great. So we got to get some sense of intent, some sense of desire. And then if somebody goes is holding their cards close to the vest, which people do, and they’ll say, look, my job is to collect the information as very good that you provide this product.
00:33:46:19 – 00:34:08:10
Oren
You know, I’d like to get a RFP on it. And, you know, show it to my team. Then, like, that’s where you are. And then you have to appropriately put that in your RFP winning cycle. So this is a 30%. What you’re trying to do is you’re trying to take a 30% account. And I want to make sure I answer your question around 20 to 30% on account and turn into an 80% account.
00:34:08:16 – 00:34:27:02
Oren
But if they say honestly, we are a 30% account in terms of viability of closing, we’re looking at multiple vendors. I will not give you emotive content on this call. I’m not going to say I’m leaning in. I’m not at the stage where I can give, say, look, this stuff really looks good. I’m going to push this on my team.
00:34:27:07 – 00:34:45:18
Oren
And they’re just being called and saying, should submit an RFP and you can test that, right? And say, hey, I will give you, you know, round numbers and we’ll give you, you know, frame, we’ll give you frames, you know, inside an RFP, you can work with the team. But if you are really looking for do it yourself low cost solution, that’s probably not us.
00:34:45:18 – 00:34:56:17
Oren
But there’s no sense in you giving away your power. The only power you have is your features, your benefits, your value proposition, and your pricing.
00:34:56:19 – 00:35:03:19
Oren
So once you have disclosed that, then they’re going, great. I’m now going to go see if they make this in China. Yeah.
00:35:03:21 – 00:35:05:09
Ralph
So I have to withdraw withhold.
00:35:05:11 – 00:35:07:18
Lauren
But they can’t once maybe once.
00:35:07:22 – 00:35:24:19
Oren
So you have to establish desire. You may not be able to get it on that call. And so what does desire come from. What are the components of that is the hot cognition. Dude Lauren, you have high energy. I like you like if you were working on my account, I don’t know if we can afford it, but if you were working on my account, this would be amazing.
00:35:24:19 – 00:35:41:03
Oren
You’re like the best rep we have. Number two is, you know, again, we have to go through a process. But when I look at your reviews, when I look at the things you’re capable of, like it is a 1 to 1 match for what we need. Like this. I don’t know if we can get pricing.
00:35:41:03 – 00:36:03:22
Oren
I don’t know if I can fight. That will be my team want, you know, keep the account we have. But man, this is really exciting to me. Right? And if you’re leaning, I’ll lean in. And until there’s some version of that in place, you’re giving away all your power by just walking them through. You know, the features benefit, value, proposition and price.
00:36:04:00 – 00:36:07:04
Ralph
So really withhold it when it’s asked. I mean, or you just.
00:36:07:06 – 00:36:11:00
Lauren
You don’t sleep with someone on the first date. You’re doing the same thing with the RFP.
00:36:11:05 – 00:36:17:09
Oren
Run me through some tough questions that you would get on the other side roof when we can wrap on that, and I’ll see if I can see if I can get them framed out for you.
00:36:17:11 – 00:36:35:17
Ralph
One of the big things is like, all right, what are you going to do in my, what’s the strategy? And my Google account or my meta account? You know, what are you guys going to do in there like that? Those are technical questions. Oh, well, the answer would be we would do this strategy, the strategy, the strategy, the strategy as opposed to the answer should be.
00:36:35:18 – 00:37:02:00
Oren
Whatever strategy we do, you have to believe in it. What I can’t do is, is execute a strategy on one day and be second guessing it on day two, and then be adjusting the strategy. And the strategy, by definition, is something we’re going to do for 90 days. And I really don’t think you and I are at a point where you go, Ralph, we let’s do the 90 day plan.
00:37:02:02 – 00:37:20:15
Oren
All right? So no matter what strategy I tell you right now. Right. You can go. I love the strategy. The day after I spend, you know, 40 hours and we start to execute it, you’re going to be second guessing it. So want to get to a point where you are such a strong believer in what we do and how we do it.
00:37:20:18 – 00:37:40:21
Oren
Then I can roll out the strategy and you go, yes, that is what we’re doing. Does me no good to put 40 hours and 40 hours and 40 hours and 40 hours into rolling strategies, because you are coming behind and and trying to manipulate it. So let’s get to a point. We do believe in each other or we don’t.
00:37:41:00 – 00:37:55:10
Oren
Once we believe in each other, let’s get into the strategy that we agree on and then go do it. Strategy, tactics. I’ll do tactics. I’ll do free for you today. Let’s log in the account. I’ll give you a oh let’s go to tactics. They know relationship.
00:37:55:12 – 00:38:04:22
Ralph
So it’s going higher level than I think most people are just most people just get sucked into those cold cognitions and just calling it cold cold cold hot cold cold hot cognition.
00:38:04:22 – 00:38:17:07
Oren
It’s what are we doing together or do we trust each other? Do we believe in each other? The big idea, Ted Lasso, go watch a season of Ted Lasso and then come back and say, I believe, and then we can start together.
00:38:17:09 – 00:38:32:22
Ralph
He knew nothing about tactics, was very successful. This has been tactical and strategic and high level, all in one tactical, but tactical still. And we actually got some of the questions that we really wanted to get answered.
00:38:33:00 – 00:39:00:18
Oren
If you replay this, if you listened and you replay this and you put in your eye and say, get rid of Lauren’s jokes, sorry, sorry, get rid of orange jokes. So I get us. Sometimes I get us confused, get rid of orange German, break this down into actual tactics I can go do. Today you will get a workbook of stuff that will double your income this quarter.
00:39:00:20 – 00:39:22:10
Oren
All right. This stuff is real. The reason we have fun with it is it’s easy when you are able to do it. Okay. So our job here is not to give you a masterclass. Our job here is to have some fun and reveal to you guys, you know, that there’s things you can do, but the things you can actually do are, are, you know, this is Dan Brown’s The Secret of Secrets.
00:39:22:14 – 00:39:23:22
Oren
We just did it right.
00:39:24:00 – 00:39:42:02
Ralph
That’s right. Well, we’re going to do the secret. It was over a professional traffic. His thing. Take the whole transcript and then just boil it down and say, what exactly did Oren say? And just a bullet by a bullet. The biggest thing I got from it is actually say the thing, like the 800 pound gorilla, like, what is that thing that’s in the room?
00:39:42:04 – 00:39:59:17
Ralph
Yeah. It’s like, and do it in such a way so that you don’t come across as an arrogant prick, which I did, I’ve done, but it’s sort of I never really seems right. So that’s been great. And I think it’s counterintuitive to a lot of salespeople, a lot of client success. People like anybody is dealing with clients or customers on a regular basis.
00:39:59:17 – 00:40:20:00
Ralph
Like all of this stuff applies. And we didn’t once ask you why you wrote the book. So we actually got like into the actual book because we’ve read. Yes. Excellent. Right. So this has been amazing having you on twice in a month. You know, I don’t even want to ask for a third time. But, you know, we’ll figure that out on email where people show up.
00:40:20:00 – 00:40:24:23
Ralph
I don’t or showed up for office, by the way. And you weren’t there.
00:40:25:01 – 00:40:26:05
Oren
Yeah, I don’t know.
00:40:26:05 – 00:40:31:10
Ralph
You were doing a through, you know, client in Italy something I don’t know what you were doing.
00:40:31:12 – 00:40:38:12
Oren
This was just on my calendar. I don’t think I even accepted it. I’m like, oh, shit, I saw it and like, did I even did I even agree to that?
00:40:38:12 – 00:40:46:01
Lauren
That’s that’s my framing, the position. I just show up. Yeah. I was going to be like, hey, I’m here at your house, we have a date right now.
00:40:46:01 – 00:40:50:05
Ralph
And then the door still looks like ding dong. Hello.
00:40:50:07 – 00:40:57:05
Oren
All right. Anyway, I’m going to go, We’re wrap, and I’m excited to see this episode come out.
00:40:57:07 – 00:41:00:15
Ralph
Yeah, absolutely. Where can people connect with you? Where’s the best place to connect to, please?
00:41:00:15 – 00:41:07:11
Oren
Just goes on the foreign. Well, even easier pitch. Anything.com. Put your name in. Come and away we go.
00:41:07:13 – 00:41:19:02
Ralph
Perfect. Thank you so much for coming back on Prevention Drive. Thanks, Ralph. Thanks, Lauren. On, behalf of my amazing co-host, Lauren Petrullo, who has to run on stage right now, and I have to run to another meeting.
00:41:19:04 – 00:41:20:22
Lauren
Where I run show.
00:41:21:00 – 00:41:22:01
Oren
Where we go channel.
00:41:22:01 – 00:41:31:03
Ralph
To the next show. See you.
