Are you convinced your SEO is outperforming paid ads and wondering why you’re still spending six figures on Meta and Google? That assumption might be one of the worst mistakes holding your growth back. We see it all the time: brands looking at last-click data, celebrating “free” organic revenue, and completely missing what’s actually driving demand.
In today’s episode, Tier 11’s John Moran breaks down a real client example showing why channel-vs-channel thinking is broken. We unpack how Meta creative diversification fuels branded search, why organic conversions are often downstream of paid traffic, and how Google Search Console exposes real brand lift.
We also dispel the impression share myth, explain why doubling spend rarely doubles results, and show how feeder strategies inside Meta Andromeda let you sell multiple products on command. You’ll understand how to read organic data correctly, test hook rates without risking massive budgets, and use feeder campaigns to unlock scalable growth across product lines.
In this episode:
02:49 Should you spend more on SEO or paid ads?
08:25 Results from organic brand search
11:51 Breaking the impression share myth
19:43 The feeder strategy explained
28:15 Testing the feeder strategy on multiple products
31:27 How to test hook rates safely
36:29 Hook rates for videos versus statics
Do you need help to scale your Meta ads in 2026?
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READ THE TRANSCRIPT:
Why Your Organic Traffic Isn’t “Organic” (Brand Lift Breakdown + Feeder 2.0)
00:00:00:00 – 00:00:05:00
John
How do I sell other products with Andromeda? When ad spend is dictating and creative is dictating what people are seeing?
00:00:05:01 – 00:00:08:00
Ralph
How much should I spend on SEO versus paid?
00:00:08:02 – 00:00:32:14
John
The amount of money that we made inside of organic search is $225,000. That’s 1.9 million. That’s a sizable amount, John. It looks like the organic traffic is making just as many sales as my very expensive paid search. Why am I paying so much for ads? Please make this clear. How do we test hook rates in Andromeda without screwing up half million dollars worth of campaigns?
00:00:32:16 – 00:01:12:05
Ralph
Hello, and welcome to the Professional Traffic Podcast. This is your host, Ralph Burns, founder and CEO of tier 11. And today is a rebroadcast of one of the most insightful ad labs we’ve done in quite some time now that we have tested, now counting over $50 million on some of these strategies that we’ve talked so much about here on perpetual traffic, and we talk about every Friday except around the holidays, every single Friday at 2:30 p.m. eastern, myself and John break down our individual experiences with our test accounts and then some actual tier 11 clients that we are using these strategies on in real time.
00:01:12:05 – 00:01:35:14
Ralph
And this one today is an outgrowth of a conversation we had with a current client and how the creative diversification strategy that we’ve talked about here so many times is so important in getting conversions over on Google Organic. Google organic people don’t really think about this all that much. They see an ad or multiple ads over on meta.
00:01:35:14 – 00:02:02:16
Ralph
The first thing they’re going to do is they’re going to Google your name, and we get into why that is a great thing, not the high value keyword like Barbershop Near Me or best CRM. You don’t want those terms. Those are the terms where they’re still shopping. You want them to Google your name, and maybe there’s a branded ad there, maybe there’s some organic, search results there for your name.
00:02:02:16 – 00:02:26:21
Ralph
If you’re doing your SEO correctly, we break down exactly why that matters and why it’s such a critical component of the creative diversification strategy. And also on the Google Ads side, we dispel the myth of impression share as well as we’re going to give you some updates on the feeder strategy, which I know you’re hanging on the edge of your seat for because we’ve talked about it so many times here on today’s show.
00:02:26:21 – 00:02:39:23
Ralph
So without further ado, let’s get into today’s show with John and yours truly. Take it away, guys. Yeah, all right, before we get into today’s show, I know you have an update on feeder feeder 2.0.
00:02:40:01 – 00:02:42:08
John
Yeah. Meta feeder, global feeder.
00:02:42:08 – 00:03:05:04
Ralph
Now we have. Oh, that’s right, we got meta. We got Coco. We got all kinds of feeders going on. Just so people listening here, like our media buyers and our growth strategies. Have a call with you twice a week for an hour. And they bring up whatever problem, whatever question they have and you help guide through it. Then you like, you might go after the fact and like help out with specific clients using a lot of things that we talk about here on this call.
00:03:05:04 – 00:03:32:03
Ralph
But you brought up something on a call from a week or so ago, which I was watching, which I was like, it finally all made sense to me around Google Search Console. And we have a client that was asking about this or was talking about like, where is the SEO? If the line from SEO to paid and how much should I spend on SEO versus paid?
00:03:32:05 – 00:03:52:19
Ralph
And you had like an extremely great answer for it, which I sort of kind of knew, but I had forgotten. And all of a sudden it was like, wow, this is what makes so much sense. And before I keep explaining it any further, maybe you could just talk about what it actually is. Yeah. So people they.
00:03:52:19 – 00:04:16:06
John
They’re still in like Google and like UA days where it’s like you know the channel of the last click and that’s how it did. So how’s my organic doing compared to my pay doing. Right. Compared to my YouTube doing all that stuff. So when people start to look at channel versus channel, the assumptions can be deadly. And so we have a company, that ranks, well, let me just see.
00:04:16:06 – 00:04:34:11
John
Sometimes we fall in and out. So I’m not sure if you type in bikini. So that right there is a company that we market for work with and you have an equity stake in, yada, yada, yada. This number one position does not pay that much about number one for bikini pays about 12 K per month. And that’s about it.
00:04:34:11 – 00:04:45:14
John
And that’s when you show up as number one for the keyword bikini. And that’s, you know, a little bit higher, maybe 20 k a month in summertime. But nothing like first position organic of the word bikini. You’re like, it’s the millions of dollars. It’s really not.
00:04:45:15 – 00:04:51:07
Ralph
It’s not just opened in a new incognito window. Same, same results right at the top. Yeah, it’s.
00:04:51:07 – 00:05:04:06
John
It’s kind of cool and. Well, you know, what’s funny is I’ll do this. I’m going to pull up. Actually, I don’t have permission to do it. I will see if I will. You just get have to trust me. But if you’ve been watching us for longer than a day, you know that we do everything by example, and that’s just what they’ll get.
00:05:04:06 – 00:05:31:12
John
And see if I can, if I can confirm that. But here’s what’s interesting. You’re like, okay, we’re showing up really well for that keyword, and organic traffic. I have an SEO team and they feed me and they say, hey, this is typically what ends up happening. Your SEO team says, hey, let’s, you know, let’s do like last 90 days because SEO works slowly and they say, okay, in SEO in last 90 days, it looks like the amount of money that we made inside of organic search is $225,000.
00:05:31:14 – 00:05:52:12
John
That’s, you know, 1.9 million. That’s a that’s a sizable amount. And I actually that’s just the key event, the purchases here. There’s the if you look at the paid or the organic search, there’s 23,177 as a sizable amount of purchases. Now this is last click as Ga4 is. So you have last click direct which is like you know, 47,000 out of 157.
00:05:52:12 – 00:06:10:15
John
So you see there is a loss there. So what we’re looking at all of these channels versus channels. We say okay pay social we got X you know paid search. We got X. But it looks like organic is costing us nothing and brings us 22,000 purchases. I’m paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for paid search. And that’s bringing me 25,000 purchases job.
00:06:10:16 – 00:06:21:07
John
It looks like the organic traffic is making just as many sales as my very expensive paid search. Why am I paying so much for ads? What’s going on? I hate life, please make this clear.
00:06:21:09 – 00:06:26:05
Ralph
Me that advertising. You’re just making all my money from SEO. It’s. You’re doing nothing to affect. Yeah.
00:06:26:11 – 00:06:48:23
John
I’m just. I’m throwing up people. But that 2012, you say? Yes, it’s organic, but what are the most common search terms in organic and SEO company’s going to hate me right now. But the most common search term in organic, unfortunately, is your brand name. So when we start to take a look at this, just as an example, this is a company that you can see the name up there if you’re watching live.
00:06:49:00 – 00:07:11:16
John
But people that watch live can confirm that the name up there is also the name over there that’s the same name. This is the last three months. This is also the last three months. So if we look at the organic search bringing in 22,000 purchases of 177,000 purchases, that’s a great channel. Now, what are the majority of users clicking on from down all the way from the 77,000 clicks, all the way down to 600 clicks?
00:07:11:16 – 00:07:33:08
John
Well, got brand brand brand brand brand brand brand brand. Hey, we have a brand. Awesome. So you have 77,000 plus five. You got this. What, like 82, 83, 84, 85, 86. So you got about 90,000 clicks and then you got 1200. Okay. So you got 90,000 brand clicks and 12,000 or 1200 non brands. So you got a ratio of about two.
00:07:33:08 – 00:07:35:05
Ralph
For less than 2%. All right.
00:07:35:07 – 00:07:52:22
John
So 2% of your traffic I don’t believe is purchasing as good as your paid. But since the page is going after majority non brand well wait a minute. We’re spending on non brand making non brand. And then the people that come back to us by googling the brand name, how much of that 22,000 is actually not coming from paid hard thing.
00:07:52:22 – 00:08:12:10
John
Especially when you’re looking at massive scale of 50% year over year. And organic seems to be scaling with it. And what’s in the organic? The brand name. So when you’re looking at how is meta doing check organic. How’s people doing? Check organic. It’s it’s we’re no longer channel versus channel. People have a cell phone, an iPad, a laptop, and they have a Facebook and Instagram, a tick tock.
00:08:12:10 – 00:08:25:02
John
And they have a YouTube. They are everywhere. We’re all so connected that it everything blends together. And all the other reasons why organic is not truly organic is just the channel they used to get back to you. But what they search, they search you.
00:08:25:06 – 00:08:52:04
Ralph
So the caveat to this is that a search with your name is that much closer to actually buying. And somebody who is searching for bikini, think about the mindset I look for. I brand name bikini company name. I have found out about bikini company somewhere else. I didn’t wake up in the morning and say oh, bikini company name that I don’t know about.
00:08:52:07 – 00:09:15:05
Ralph
I learned about it. I’m in the market for bikinis. I probably learned about it on a meta platform, maybe a YouTube video or some other social form. And I am then googling your brand name, that brand name of that bikini company, and because I’m interested in buying it, if I google bikini, I’m still shopping around. Now I have a far.
00:09:15:05 – 00:09:18:05
John
Less funny could turn into a google a search later on for.
00:09:18:05 – 00:09:19:07
Ralph
Sure. Absolutely.
00:09:19:10 – 00:09:39:07
John
If what if that works well, Google it up. Make 97% of their annual revenue off of organic, right? It’s paid and they rigged the game. And that’s why they say, wait, we’ll sell you traffic or we’ll sell you conversions. You want traffic? That’s a CEO Max clicks and manual CPC like conversions. That’s conversion based bidding. So you can do all of our organic campaigns over here showing up for bikini.
00:09:39:09 – 00:09:55:04
John
All we’re doing is warming up traffic so that I and all my competitors can bid on it when they’re ready to buy. Right. That’s so stupid. This got. So what’s this too? This is actually really fun. I have a difference of measurement for brand list. So we’ll look at the last 90 days. For the previous 90 days, my organic search has gone up 117%.
00:09:55:04 – 00:10:13:09
John
Right. It’s 170% increase in revenue coming from organic search. And last 90 days compared to the previous 90 days. Go into Google Search Console and compare the same 90 days to the previous 90 days. And what is our brand lift metric? Well, I want to know that I don’t care about the clicks. Just erase this out of your mind for a moment.
00:10:13:09 – 00:10:33:16
John
What I care about in Brand Lift is the impressions over the last three months, compared to the impressions of the previous months, went from 180,000 to a 305. Did they click on brand or did they click on non brand at that point I don’t care. All I know is that people who are looking for me went a lot higher, went for it and they basically gained 125,000 users on top of the 180.
00:10:33:20 – 00:10:42:10
John
So it’s not 100% increase. But when you take into consideration that there is 100% increase, because this last 90 days, we went through Black Friday Cyber Monday. It’s still not organic, though.
00:10:42:12 – 00:10:43:09
Ralph
It’s not organic.
00:10:43:09 – 00:10:58:16
John
So the brand lift is how many people are googling your name that will tell you a brand list. So doing a holdout test. Are you doing a TV commercial doing direct mail? Doing whatever. Isolate the location that you’re doing your marketing into. More people’s search your name, regardless of where they clicked, brand or organic. Doesn’t matter where you click.
00:10:58:17 – 00:11:14:09
John
It matters that they search. That’s their bread lift. So when you’re looking at impressions, doubling and organic suddenly got better by double. It didn’t. Just people didn’t work. Wait, I got to grow six feet and buy tall products. Now I wonder if this for companies a thing that doesn’t happen has to start somewhere else. And that’s that’s what is tied to spend.
00:11:14:09 – 00:11:16:03
John
Which is why are a thing.
00:11:16:06 – 00:11:31:09
Ralph
That’s why Google Search Console is so instructive. So when this client I said, I’ll guarantee you, if you look at Google Search Console, you’re going to see 95% of your all of your searches coming in for your brand name. Sure enough, we went in there right after the call and that was the case. Where are they coming from?
00:11:31:09 – 00:11:51:00
Ralph
They’re coming from our meta ads. They’re coming from, you know, maybe some of the socials, prospecting channels, people who are actually searching for, like, they’ve got a really, really good product. Yeah. Highly regionalized. You know, it’s it’s based on well, it’s also seasonal to a certain degree. The point is this is that top of funnel creative diversification meta and drama is the solution there.
00:11:51:02 – 00:12:11:14
Ralph
The the other question that I had for you on these types of clients is, okay, they’re also doing some high value keywords like the, the, the thing that their company does near me. And their statement is also that, well, we’re only getting 20% of our impression share. What if we double it to 40%? Isn’t that a better lever than going after this meta stuff?
00:12:11:18 – 00:12:13:08
Ralph
Your answer would be.
00:12:13:12 – 00:12:30:15
John
Impression share is not linear. It’s a breadth and depth factor. So when you’re talking about impression share, the impression share is the total availability of the variables are going after. So if I go after the the keyword, you know, size 12 red shoe two inch heel, very very very specific.
00:12:30:17 – 00:12:32:03
Ralph
You look at it in that by the way.
00:12:32:07 – 00:12:36:04
John
Right. I know I am only 510 so it makes me six foot less.
00:12:36:06 – 00:12:37:06
Ralph
And so we can get here.
00:12:37:09 – 00:12:58:22
John
So when you’re looking at like that specific of a search term, you can get ten clicks and have 100% search impression share. Now take off the word a two inch heel. Now you’re looking at red shoe. While your search pressure just went from ten impressions to now a million. So by changing your keyword, you widen the scope of what you can show up by impressions and simply do the fact that I change the keyword.
00:12:58:22 – 00:13:20:04
John
I can cut in half or double my search and pressure, because search compression sure is the eligibility of me showing up for the variables of that keyword. So changing match types, yes. Or increasing your bid, which means increasing your budget, which means your bid can go up, which means there’s a wider audience. So increasing budget and increasing bid can sometimes reduce your search impressions here because now you’re eligible for a larger audience.
00:13:20:04 – 00:13:37:01
John
Yes. But to you personally, you went from 200 people that you can market 2 to 400 people, but your total search impression share of a million people may have gone to 10 million people. So as you widen your audience, your search and pressure goes down, even though you’re making market penetration in the area that you wanted to. But it is absolutely not linear.
00:13:37:01 – 00:13:56:03
John
It’s actually if you can double your budget, sometimes your search pressure goes from 20 to 24%. It’s not that much. So that’s where I would say a search operation here is literally, am I showing up for all variables on the first page? Yeah, yeah. But when you really want to look at is what are the valuable search terms and search keywords that are overlapping commonly.
00:13:56:03 – 00:14:14:03
John
And how am I looking at those specifically because I don’t want to have 100% search impression share on dog grooming near me. If nail clipping near me was what I was searching for. Yeah, because I don’t want to. I don’t want to match for that it 100% of the time. So good. I don’t want 100% search impression share on the close match you came up with.
00:14:14:09 – 00:14:16:19
John
And that’s why it’s not really a linear metric.
00:14:17:00 – 00:14:24:15
Ralph
Yeah. So it’s it’s it’s it’s an easy rationalization. Well if I just double it then I double my business. It’s not it’s not linear.
00:14:24:21 – 00:14:36:08
John
No, it’s never linear. I actually have never actually seen it be linear. People say it is no number. Yeah. You know, what’s funny is I’m just going to do this for fun. I’m just going to share screen on an account. And we’re just going to grab an account. Okay. Look, I’ve.
00:14:36:08 – 00:14:50:20
Ralph
Seen you get 90% impression to share on some Google ads. I know we’ve done an ad lab in here where you’ve gotten, like, super, super high. I believe it was like that RV customer that we had, like, you’re going we’re going to have really, really high share of impressions for specific keywords.
00:14:50:22 – 00:15:11:00
John
Yeah. And so like I just do like March, April, May, June, July compared to previous period like yeah. But you can but sometimes it’s like do I want a specific market penetration on a specific group. Yeah. So like this campaign here went up 78% and ad spend went from basically 100 grand to 190,000. Let me just turn off all the segmentation because you also you see the quality imports and all the other crap.
00:15:11:05 – 00:15:22:00
John
But this one here, if I just look at my impression column and say, I don’t even know if I use search impressions, oh, that’s top. I don’t even know if they really I don’t use search impressions here. Actually, it’s not a metric I track, which is kind of like this stuff.
00:15:22:01 – 00:15:23:12
Ralph
And I’ll let you actually know.
00:15:23:14 – 00:15:26:17
John
Oh, I really don’t because it’s just, it’s yeah. So I went, oh.
00:15:26:18 – 00:15:34:13
Ralph
You are the best you are, by the way. You are the best Google guy on the planet. I know you become a a guy, but you’re still the best Google guy on the self. So yeah.
00:15:34:15 – 00:15:57:00
John
All right. Ready cost search impression share I’m going to increase my ASP at 78%. Congratulations you lost 35% search impression share. Damn it. All right I went up 80%. You only lost seven. Damn it! You know why I did this on purpose? And I purposely utilized an a time period where this would, quote unquote, not work. Why? Well, I chose an outdoor kitchen company during the time of our peak season.
00:15:57:00 – 00:16:16:06
John
March, June, July. Now, I compare that to our off season of September and October and November, December, January, February. So these two time periods are my busy season versus my non busy season. Well, what happens to the busy season of users? The user pool goes from small to much larger. My aspect went from small to kind of bigger.
00:16:16:06 – 00:16:33:15
John
So it used to be I used to do this and actually I’ll do this in a little. I’ll pull up paint. This would be a lot easier. So let’s do this. If your search impression share is now based on is simply just eligibility. So if you have a this is what I’m going after and this is who I could go after okay.
00:16:33:20 – 00:16:55:06
John
This means that you have a 10% you know search is okay. So I’ll make this a little bit clear. You have a 10% search is now let’s just say that this all of a sudden it starts to grow really, really big right here and now. I am this big in here. Well, I still have a 10% search, is why?
00:16:55:11 – 00:17:15:12
John
Well, the availability that I can show up, what I’m eligible for, grow twice as much. I tripled my budget. See the size of small circle? The big circle. That’s three times as much spend. Let’s see the available audience. Yeah, the small sort of. The big circle also tripled. So your search impressions share stayed flat upon you, tripling your budget because there was more demand and your supply increased at the same rate.
00:17:15:15 – 00:17:33:18
Ralph
Okay. Got it. So Google is just Google figure. All this stuff out. Yeah. Like if it was that easy, like everybody would just be crushing it on Google ads because you’re like, oh, I’ve got 10% impression share. I’m just going to double my budget and now I’ve got 20%. Magically, it’s not quite that easy. It’s not like, you know, you’re going to the ATM and you’re putting in your card and you say, give me 100 bucks.
00:17:33:22 – 00:17:39:05
Ralph
It’s going to give you a hundred bucks every single time you say, give me 200 bucks. As long as you have enough money in the account, it’s not like.
00:17:39:05 – 00:18:00:20
John
That. You want to have want to have more brain damage. Watch how stupid this thing actually gets to. Now we can take this one small step further and give you a really, really massive amount of brain damage. There is two groups of people and these group of people over here say, should I shave my dog? All right. This one is dog groomers near me.
00:18:00:23 – 00:18:22:16
John
All right. And now this is like my keyword I’m going after is dog grooming services. I’m just gonna use about what now a high CPC bid is going to get these people. Why more competitive but also smaller audience. A low CPC bid is going to go over here because there’s not a lot of people bidding, but there’s everyone asking Google and ChatGPT random questions.
00:18:22:16 – 00:18:43:19
John
No one bidding on so low CPC. So by taking my ad spend like, hey, you know what? If I start to switch over to manual CPC and I bid less for these keywords as seem like I get more searches? Yes, of lower quality than no one bid on and it goes to lap. So you’re technically you can keep your ad, spend the same drop your CPC and your search impressions sure can explode because you’re actually getting the larger amount of random searches.
00:18:43:20 – 00:18:47:06
John
Another one else is taking your buyers. Yeah, so it’s all about relativity.
00:18:47:10 – 00:18:53:03
Ralph
So in that case, that’s the reason why in the analysis when you looked at that, you’re like, yeah, the Google ads are fine. Like I was.
00:18:53:03 – 00:18:54:03
John
Looking at a search pressure does.
00:18:54:03 – 00:18:59:16
Ralph
Then you’re like, you’re like, that’s fine. What you really need to do is you need to do creative diversification over on meta Andromeda. Yeah.
00:18:59:20 – 00:19:12:16
John
By region feeder. Yeah, exactly. By reader. You need to understand what how much money you’re spending and how much you’re actually being able to attribute in a location to know, can I scale that location? What’s a seasonality of that location year over year? So we can plan. But it’s actually right.
00:19:12:18 – 00:19:14:00
Ralph
Makes a whole lot of sense.
00:19:14:00 – 00:19:15:03
John
Yeah. Cool.
00:19:15:03 – 00:19:26:04
Ralph
We have to keep repeating this over and over again by the way, because people still don’t get this. So if you feel like you’re repeating yourself, don’t worry about it. Because they didn’t hear that. They didn’t hear the first 19 times. The setup.
00:19:26:06 – 00:19:30:01
John
I’ve been doing this for about ten years. And how many times you heard me say the word Ncac and Roas.
00:19:30:06 – 00:19:32:14
Ralph
Like oh, hahahahaha.
00:19:32:16 – 00:19:33:18
John
All right, so.
00:19:33:18 – 00:19:34:13
Ralph
All right, quick.
00:19:34:15 – 00:19:47:00
John
Update. This is fantastic. Fantastic stuff. And updated. We have two little overlapping updates between hook rate and feeder. It’s coming together. It’s amazing. So we did a couple things. So great feeder. First thing we’re going to talk about.
00:19:47:00 – 00:19:50:20
Ralph
Is only like last Friday by the way. So this is like an update of an update.
00:19:50:22 – 00:19:55:15
John
Yeah. And this is actually if we look at this is just going to be the last a seven day update actually, which is kind of cool off color.
00:19:55:15 – 00:19:58:17
Ralph
So just tell people what you’re doing here. Just if they missed last week’s show.
00:19:58:17 – 00:20:27:12
John
Just exactly right. Review. Yeah. So we developed feeder strategy. Now a feeder strategy for Google people have seen before is the way to use standard shopping and performance Max to have the two compete and talk with each other in order for us to steer a more powerful, larger campaign that can very off the rails called performance Max. Since it’s a black box and you have no control, feeder strategy allows you to use external campaigns in order to drive more people to the target pixel, in order to manipulate the larger amount of spending into a specific direction.
00:20:27:16 – 00:20:41:02
John
So think of it like you have a roomful of people, and there’s 50 people in that room and you’re talking about glass jars, okay. And so I say, hey, 50 people, I have glass jars and these glass jars. Amazing. And the 50 people are like, wow, we love your glass jars. And now I’m just talking to this here.
00:20:41:02 – 00:20:55:00
John
And I’m like, you know what I really want to talk about? You know, my my other glass jar called lemonade, I don’t know, people are interested in lemonade, but people like glass jars and water. So how do I how do I take these 50 people that are just interested in this and be like, have you seen this? How do I sell other products with Andromeda?
00:20:55:00 – 00:20:58:01
John
When ad spend is dictating and creative is dictating what people are seeing.
00:20:58:06 – 00:21:01:00
Ralph
Starts with that computer. Well, the show’s over.
00:21:01:04 – 00:21:19:01
John
If you see the slip out of my hand or in goes black, you’ll know that I just messed everything up it. But so we basically say, okay, this is what Metab wants to spend. And we said, well, what if we start an external campaign and we start bringing people in this way? So now I have someone out in in the show right now as I’m speaking to my 50 people, bringing in people that are like, hey John, these people are interested in lemonade.
00:21:19:05 – 00:21:34:23
John
Like, okay, great, maybe my 10% of my speech is going to be about lemonade because 10% of the people that just joined want lemonade. And so now I’m using feeder, which is the dude out in the hall grabbing people that are said lemonade and saying, you got to hear the speech. That’s exactly how this works in a humanistic variable.
00:21:34:23 – 00:21:50:14
John
So meta is the pixel, which is the room us advertisers using creative fill the room with. People are interested in whatever creative they’re clicking on. You bring in new diversified, creative, grow the room which is outspend. And those people are. Now we have two products that we’re selling, and we can grow them by pulling these levers on feeders.
00:21:50:16 – 00:22:12:07
John
Right. So the cool part about this is we said, well, let’s test this a few different ways. So we did do two separate individual tests. And I wanted to share showcase you these tests because this is actually like pretty definitive. So first thing this is our joint campaign in the last seven days. What we said is we want to add in ad spend into our joint product.
00:22:12:07 – 00:22:23:18
John
So we raised it up 413% went from the $1,300 in the Up. Sorry once again to see things getting overlapped. Sorry everyone real quick. I am stuck in my chair in my head. There we go.
00:22:24:00 – 00:22:26:04
Ralph
I had to change out your headphones last week.
00:22:26:04 – 00:22:41:21
John
I know I have this dog and a cord that just gets wrapped around things. Okay, so we said we’re going to increase our ad spend wife by 413%. We went from $1,300 to 7000. So let’s just put that on the calculator real quick or say, okay, we added 5704. Perfect. We’re going to set that off to the side.
00:22:42:00 – 00:23:06:00
John
Now I have another column over here that I’m going to add. And the column bit I did have before that ended up going away is called Joint New Customers. So the joint new customers is right here. And I said if I add in ad spend to the feeder, my main campaign that has joint products in there and also has better attribution than this one, this feeder runs on the seven day click.
00:23:06:00 – 00:23:21:23
John
The all products runs on seven day click whenever you one day engage you. Why? Because this one has higher ad spend. Has the ads. So if I bring anybody into the room, this campaign’s going to start talking to them. That’s how that works. Yeah. And so if it starts talking to them, I want them to know that they’re right.
00:23:22:04 – 00:23:42:18
John
So I allow the attribution to go there. I’m just leveraging the way the algorithm works. So you said, okay, the main campaign here has had 1% change in spend. This one increased by 400%. So we look over to the side and we see we have 118% more new customers. Where are they coming from? Well, it looks like my feeder campaign brought in 15.
00:23:42:21 – 00:24:05:13
John
And then my main campaign brought in another 13. Perfect. Exactly what I want. I don’t care where they land, I just want them both to equal 118% more. Okay, so let’s pause there and just validate. Let’s just verify. So in the same time period let’s go last seven days here which is not including the previous period. And then we’re going to compare that to the past previous period last seven days.
00:24:05:17 – 00:24:22:09
John
Remember we added $5,700 to joint. So we go that off to the side and let’s go down to our joint products. We don’t sell a lot of products here. As you can tell I’m we’re only marketing. I’m meta which is why it’s controlled. There’s my joint and my joint went from 35 up to 59. Okay. So let’s throw that now in the calculator.
00:24:22:09 – 00:24:47:17
John
So if we have 59 down to 3559 -35 whoops we have 24 incremental for 5704. So let’s divide the 5704 divided by 24. They come in at $237. So $237 for a new customer. Well if I go to my media tracker which tells me what I am spending on for a customer right now, that 235 is below the average of 315.
00:24:47:19 – 00:25:05:06
John
Excellent. So now I’m bringing in more new customers at a cheaper cost than my main immunity product. And we’re doing this with feeder. Now let’s go over to the this is my joint right here, my my joint product. And let’s go to like the last. No let’s go to the last 30 days okay. So because I also want sales we also want subscribers.
00:25:05:10 – 00:25:24:11
John
So our last 30 days of my joint product and we launched the Or we scaled up the joint campaign on the 10th or like right before the 10th because we cranked it up right then thereafter. But around the 10th, the joint here. So we have this kind of move up here. We got the plateau, plateau, plateau, plateau. Here comes the 10th.
00:25:24:15 – 00:25:46:19
John
There’s my new subscribers went from base 8395 up. Excellent. So we see a nice little blip up there okay. So let’s say we did this and that was in the joint. Now let’s do this. What about our digestive. We ran a digestive feeder before and we ran it for a specific time between November 16th and December 6th. We’ve tried this before, but we thought it failed because we’re looking at this incorrectly.
00:25:46:23 – 00:26:15:05
John
So in our digestive feeder between November 16th and December 6th, where we pause this, we have to look at our digestive here. Well, that is November 18th right there. We started the the joint. No, we started the digestive feeder on November 16th, November 16th is right there. Here. Yeah. And then we ended it on the sixth, which is here.
00:26:15:10 – 00:26:42:06
John
So what’s nice about this is we were running at a plateau. Started here, ended here. So we have plateau horizontal line, kind of a plateau with a little blip of at the end. Okay. So not only have we seen this inside a better inside the feeder exactly as we want inside the top line, measuring my new customers in Shopify and inside of our tracker with all of our new subscribers, I don’t know any other way to showcase that this works.
00:26:42:10 – 00:26:52:19
Ralph
In December 7th onwards, like no more feeders paid paid search. I mean, sorry, no more feeder paid ads. You stop them entirely.
00:26:52:23 – 00:27:09:04
John
On the digestive because we switched over to joint to say can we, can we see the digestive stop and can we see the joint pick up? And that’s exactly what we saw. It was down a plateau rising positive plateau. The other one went for plateau. Turn on rising. And I mean it’s basically we have our levers now.
00:27:09:05 – 00:27:11:14
Ralph
It’s basically just a full correlation.
00:27:11:18 – 00:27:12:23
John
It’s a plug and play.
00:27:13:04 – 00:27:13:17
Ralph
Yeah.
00:27:13:17 – 00:27:16:04
John
It’s sell products on command.
00:27:16:07 – 00:27:22:03
Ralph
It literally had almost the changes like the day after you launch the campaign. I mean that’s that’s incredible.
00:27:22:03 – 00:27:25:04
John
It’s interesting how there is a little bit of time lag. We noticed.
00:27:25:04 – 00:27:28:16
Ralph
And it’s not a day though. Well it’s nice. This is.
00:27:28:16 – 00:27:30:12
John
The 16th. When we started we got like one.
00:27:30:12 – 00:27:34:10
Ralph
Oh okay. Right right right. Yeah a couple of days down and then all of a sudden boom. Yeah.
00:27:34:10 – 00:27:56:04
John
Just because here’s the issue is this line is actually fighting a push and pull. So the blue is our new subscribers and the Reds all of our cancellations. So this may kind of waffle a little bit if we brought some new ones. And then it got smoked here. So that’s the reason why there is a little bit of a dip, but that we were able to attribute much more new than returning, which just kept this thing looking like the Sp500 on a macro view that is goes up.
00:27:56:07 – 00:28:08:15
Ralph
Oh, I mean, even like after you stopped spend, it’s still it’s still on an upward kind of sort of trajectory. I mean, well, 339 to 351 I mean, it’s not I don’t know if that’s a clinically relevant, but or statistically significant, I guess, is the question.
00:28:08:20 – 00:28:24:03
John
Rightly, is this thing kind of move sideways and have a sense like, hey, why is the moving up over here like, this is kind of weird? Everson has started again in this time period. Here we actually backdated that now to our third feeder tests. And this thing is going to be really, really cool. We actually have something called a CPL.
00:28:24:05 – 00:28:48:03
John
CPL. We’ve actually started to market the CPL inside of here in the CPL is our three pack. So hey do you like our immunity product? Now you can get immunity joint and digestive all at the same time. Once we started pushing those, we noticed that this plateau started to increase again because those products are in our campaign. So our third and final test is going to be we have our immune product and that is fantastic.
00:28:48:07 – 00:29:04:07
John
We tried joint. We can scale joint we tried digestive, we can do digestive. We then tried all three and all of a sudden all three works. So now we’re going to have a main campaign that primarily sells immune. And then we’re going to have a feeder of a three pack. So you like this product. Have you seen or tried the other three.
00:29:04:09 – 00:29:12:07
John
Like now we’re going to see can we just scale everything at once with two campaigns. That’s the next. If we can do all product scale at the same time that’s going to be gold.
00:29:12:09 – 00:29:16:22
Ralph
So plus your average order value is going to increase too because they’re buying three all at once.
00:29:17:00 – 00:29:21:08
John
That starts to have them all at it. Exactly. And target the increase. And the LTV will also increase.
00:29:21:12 – 00:29:31:09
Ralph
Absolutely. Yes yes, yes, I didn’t realize I didn’t realize you had a three pack on that one. Yeah, that’s a that’s pretty cool. Like each one of the what is it. It’s immune.
00:29:31:09 – 00:29:35:03
John
It’s digestion immune and a joint joint okay.
00:29:35:07 – 00:29:39:05
Ralph
So those are the three. And that immune is the one that’s like the flagship.
00:29:39:10 – 00:29:40:06
John
Exactly. Right.
00:29:40:06 – 00:30:05:12
Ralph
And it’s the other ones that you’re trying to get you know get some momentum going to obviously get new customers, not just on immune but the business goal here, like we mentioned last week show, is to get subscribers on all of the products, therefore making you as a business that much more attractive and valuable from a valuation standpoint for a potential takeover at some point in time and buyout where you’re going to be buying brand new plaid shirts all the time.
00:30:05:12 – 00:30:06:22
Ralph
Exactly. Getting new headphones.
00:30:07:03 – 00:30:21:15
John
So, hey, do I got new ones? Yeah. But that’s that’s right. Like this three pack here like this. This sells for a lot of issues. Like I’m only selling X and meta like for the people that are like, wow, my meta campaigns seem to sell a lot of X product. How do I get it to sell anything else?
00:30:21:20 – 00:30:35:13
John
This is the answer. And it’s going to evolve and continually change, adapt and modify. We have like three more tests. We’re going to run. But I mean, I don’t see anybody else being able to even understand yet control and leverage and drama as fast as we can. Like this shit is this is fantastic. This is so.
00:30:35:13 – 00:30:50:17
Ralph
Cool because I love the three pack, right? Because the AOF is just killer. Because now I don’t know if you’ve figured out, like, what your new Ncac is on that three pack, like, yeah or what? It’s the I would imagine it’s higher than 210 250 in and around that range. Right.
00:30:50:19 – 00:31:05:17
John
It’s unknown at this point because we didn’t really understand which campaigns were using the three PL, like it was kind of like our left over. We only had six ads kind of thing running. So they’re always just kind of a part of catch alls everywhere. But all of a sudden, as soon as we saw spend starting to increase on it, then we see everything start to increase.
00:31:05:17 – 00:31:19:02
John
We’re like, Holy crap, what have we have? A letter lever for product A, product B, product C, and all of the above. Like you can’t ask for anything more. It’s literally like, what do you want to sell? Well, some more three packs would crank it up like it’s it’s pronounced pretty simplistic and.
00:31:19:02 – 00:31:21:12
Ralph
That’s on recharge two. Are the three packs on a recharge?
00:31:21:18 – 00:31:39:05
John
Yes sir. There. Yeah yeah yeah. They’re better showcased individually but they are on a recharge. Yeah. Got it. So check this out. This is something I thought was really unique. When we look at the hook, remember when we talked about the importance of hook. Right. Yeah. Well, in the previous, strategy that we ran the previous hook right to.
00:31:39:07 – 00:31:48:18
Ralph
If you weren’t on last week, hook is you stick around for longer than three seconds. You have to read the ad. Oftentimes it comes with the click and all these other sorts of things.
00:31:48:18 – 00:32:06:15
John
So anyway, exactly right. Is basically is the amount of impressions divided by the people that saw more than three seconds of that video. That’s how much hook rate is. So 37% hook rates means one out of three people stop and watch it longer than three seconds. Now remember what I was saying to like hook rate themes, everything. Everything is now spending on hook rate, right?
00:32:06:17 – 00:32:20:14
John
Meta. Was two thirds of your video or two thirds of your create be in video format? You have your reels, your statics and videos and your videos in real should be like 16 by nine format. I forgot what it was or number 16. I forget right now basically that by 16. So you got their videos and you got the reels now by 16 than you ever statics.
00:32:20:16 – 00:32:41:00
John
But you want a hi fi Lo-Fi, but still you have to have two thirds video. We understand two thirds video now because after examining all the metrics that deem to control spend the most, hook rate was the highest indicator of success. So when you see this descending again, you can see half my spend on product. On product A typically it’s like, oh no, this one’s spending half to spend.
00:32:41:00 – 00:32:56:15
John
Pause it. Well that one has got a 43% hook rate compared to literally everything else. So pause your best hooked ad for a less hooked ad. And that’s why this shit does work anymore. Because we pause what works spend it dictates all hook rate dictates spend. Cool. So now that we know that we’re leveraging it. But check this out.
00:32:56:19 – 00:33:14:05
John
We knew that our joint had a good video in there. It worked. Sorry. We worked well with the previous theater. We tried it with this feeder. It failed miserably. And that’s when we that’s what we said. Okay. Hook rate. So this last feeder that we’re running, this is the best hook rate we made a concerted effort. And this hook rate is the best.
00:33:14:05 – 00:33:31:01
John
And it’s also beating the Ncac in this all product campaign we’re spending half million because this whole great sucks. So yes hook rate is going to be something important. So how do we get better hook rates. How do we test hook rates in Andromeda without screwing up half million dollars worth of campaigns? Last week I said, we’re going to be testing something.
00:33:31:01 – 00:33:43:10
John
I think you actually came to the idea before I could present it, which is what about boosted posts? That was that was yours. That. Yeah. So boosted post. So I said we’re going to test that. And we did. So we had a whole bunch of boosted posts, but only one had video in it. Look at that hook. Great.
00:33:43:15 – 00:33:45:11
Ralph
Oh wow.
00:33:45:11 – 00:33:47:03
John
We we purposely for everyone.
00:33:47:03 – 00:33:48:07
Ralph
That says I.
00:33:48:07 – 00:33:53:23
John
Videos or dub I don’t like I videos. Well we paid like $7 for this video and it was an eye video.
00:33:54:01 – 00:33:59:20
Ralph
And so like there it is. It’s one of the ten types of ads. Hey right there John.
00:33:59:23 – 00:34:16:05
John
Exactly right. I remember when we found out that people really want to know stories about animals. Well, comfort starts from the inside. My two year old is peppier. She feels better. So we basically just started to have this little animated dancing thing with the puppy, and we’re just talking about all of our sophistication. So we’re like, let’s just test it out.
00:34:16:09 – 00:34:33:10
John
It actually is working pretty well. I think people do like the animated puppy, because we’re going after dog owners and people really want to know why, though. Exactly. Like, yeah, right. My two year old is peppier like, what is this like? So they that we that’s how we hooked them. They want to know how scary 78% hook rate, 2% cost per view now.
00:34:33:11 – 00:34:49:20
John
Well this actually average out into anything great when we start to focus on conversions who knows. But what we just said boosted post. And if you’re just alive by Wednesday like this video, eight out of ten said yes, that’s good enough for us to now throw it into the main campaign and say, let’s see how this works. Let’s see if this is something that is going to work.
00:34:49:20 – 00:35:05:16
Ralph
Well, my only criticism of that is that you’re getting video watchers as opposed to potentially converters. It’d be interesting to see if you put that in a conversion campaign because that’s like video view through play. Right. So are you just getting people to watch the video? But then they’re never going to buy, even though you’ve got an insanely high hook rate.
00:35:05:21 – 00:35:06:16
John
That’s we’re going to find out.
00:35:06:17 – 00:35:20:03
Ralph
Yeah, I guess we find out that. Yeah. Because we that’s it’s cool because you have I that’s so long ago I had this great idea. I’m like, if we could get just get people to watch videos and we had hook like, this is before hook, right? We were doing it manually.
00:35:20:08 – 00:35:21:23
John
You since I kind of just hook them.
00:35:22:01 – 00:35:32:03
Ralph
We just hook them then we can sell them. But what we found is that all the people that were watching videos, because we put on a video view campaign back then, which is video viewers but not converters.
00:35:32:09 – 00:35:47:01
John
Exactly. Right. And that’s that’s kind of what we’re seeing is like we may find out that if the video viewers are over 70, that may average out to a hook rate of 30, like we don’t know what that will will, that will grade to when we take it from pixel of just happy people to like, these are our buyers.
00:35:47:03 – 00:36:06:12
John
That’s what we’re going to find out. Which is exactly test. Now the hook rate being 80%. So far so good. How this equates if we can identify a consistent static drop in percentile points when I switch from viewed of yours to converters, and we know that there’s a basis like it usually drops 30. Now we have a we have a benchmark target for our hook rate on boosted posts.
00:36:06:12 – 00:36:09:05
John
And it’s only costing us five bucks to figure this out, which is great.
00:36:09:09 – 00:36:17:02
Ralph
Which is cool, you know. But at least you’re finding out like that’s a that’s some video that you want to test and you want to put it into a conversion campaign because it passed the sniff test on the video.
00:36:17:02 – 00:36:18:17
John
It costs five bucks to get five.
00:36:18:21 – 00:36:23:22
Ralph
Views on it. I, I bucks, which is about what you what you spent to create it apparently for free.
00:36:24:03 – 00:36:27:06
John
We do do animated videos and testing. All for ten bucks.
00:36:27:08 – 00:36:51:15
Ralph
All for ten bucks. That’s pretty sick. I did know that, like you said this, you sort of dropped this along the way is that you want a certain percentage, especially with creative diversification. You want a lot of video, you want 60% ish. But last week, last Friday, it wasn’t really that long ago. You actually had a couple of posts or a couple of ads which were not video, but we’re getting really insane hook rates because they were clicking to read more.
00:36:51:15 – 00:36:54:00
Ralph
So they had very high click sites.
00:36:54:05 – 00:36:55:04
John
Oh yeah.
00:36:55:04 – 00:37:08:12
Ralph
Yes. Click through all. Yeah. So have you changed your tune on that saying like you should because those seem to be very hooky and we’re obviously working and I believe they were in the feeder the feeder campaign, if I’m not mistaken.
00:37:08:17 – 00:37:30:19
John
What’s interesting about this whole thing and what also really sucks, is that I also mentioned on the call last week, and we kind of also saw it in real life again yesterday, which is Meta’s Andromeda wants this. They really want this here. Yeah. The reason why I said we want two thirds video is comes directly from I can’t draw on that is right.
00:37:30:19 – 00:37:40:03
John
It comes directly from meta. Yeah. So they say you want to have a video a static and a real. Well, that’s two videos that are static or 66% videos.
00:37:40:05 – 00:37:43:21
Ralph
We’re extrapolating here. But yeah, exactly. Probably about right.
00:37:43:23 – 00:37:59:15
John
Yeah. And so when they because they wanted us to have the the video formats in four different formats, kind of high fi lo fi treatment, other video static reel. So I was like, well, why are they asking for more video engagement than static? Like they made a concerted effort to build an entire page in the presentation about this and how they should be addressing.
00:37:59:19 – 00:38:28:22
John
So it’s like, well, okay, I understand this now, why? Well, if video is a bigger factor to the algorithm of intent, then you want to have it stack the deck to what can be bored tenfold. So we said, well, if we’re looking at just a campaign like our dogs joint and C or whatever may be, and we sort descending by amount spent and we look at our hook right here, you can see that this is a video and then a static and then a video, and a video is static in a video and a static and then a static static static set.
00:38:29:03 – 00:38:53:13
John
So we had more static than video. And then what ended up happening was it says, thanks for your 34 ads where most of them are static, but hey, you found a good video and it has a good hook rate. So you know what? Everything else from here on down is basically just going to kind of be ignored. Like, okay, so yeah, yes, if we take ten and I have a better example this I just can’t show it because it’s a company I didn’t have permission to share.
00:38:53:17 – 00:39:12:19
John
They did nine statics and one video, and 90% of our spend is on the video because it has 32% hook rates. So if you have a good hook rate on a video, it kind of just screws up your statics there. Now just like nice nice to have remarketing reminders. But it’s not driving conversions or growth or new customers or brand building or anything else.
00:39:13:01 – 00:39:28:18
John
It’s basically just like you like that video. I’ve seen this picture, I’ve seen that picture, seen a picture. So we found out that, yes, it makes sense to have 66% of your creative inside of a B video, because if one of those works, that’s what’s going to suck up even you can have 20% click. The rates be beat by 10% view rates or hook.
00:39:28:20 – 00:39:36:07
John
It’s very strange. So that’s what’s weird is like the best hook rate, even if it sucks, is still better than the best. Click the rate of a static is what we’re seeing so far.
00:39:36:10 – 00:39:50:08
Ralph
Yeah, definitely. And meta is just telling us that. And you’re seeing it obviously in the data and the data doesn’t lie. Well, speaking of not lying, we know Thomas from Austria never lies, but he’s been waiting very, very patiently here. We should probably get over to questions. That was awesome, by the way.
00:39:50:08 – 00:39:51:03
John
It’s cool stuff right?
00:39:51:07 – 00:39:58:05
Ralph
This is pretty cool because work it out. We’re not we’re not going to be on Friday and probably the Friday after that because that’s Boxing Day. I’m taking Boxing Day off.
00:39:58:08 – 00:40:04:09
John
Yeah. Yeah. We’ve we packed a good thing we got a feeder and we just told you how to like, just scale your company for free so we can get a day off.
00:40:04:14 – 00:40:08:16
Ralph
Okay. What can I say? Yeah. For the amount we get paid for this, you know? Absolutely.
00:40:08:19 – 00:40:12:23
John
Make sure I take myself to get a dollar menu for McDonald’s. That’s what I’m banned from a day off as well.
00:40:12:23 – 00:40:36:23
Ralph
Yeah. The you know so more content creative diversification packages which by the way we only have one left. All right. Hope you enjoyed this week’s show and some of the insights there. We’re going to continue to follow up on. Obviously the feeder strategy is an evolving strategy that we’re using right now, especially in the e-commerce space. We’re testing it there right now, but very eager to see some results on the services space, which we’re testing as well.
00:40:37:01 – 00:40:51:02
Ralph
And of course, for any of this stuff, if you don’t want to do it yourself, you want us to do it. You want to get 30 plus creatives every single month. You want to get professional media buying that knows exactly how to deploy these strategies that we talked about with John every single week. And obviously on the show as well.
00:40:51:08 – 00:41:24:11
Ralph
Head on over to tier 11.com/apply throughout the forum and we’d be happy to talk to you about how we can help you scale and grow your business in 2026 and beyond. Of course, where you listen to podcasts, we’d love a rating and or review. Let’s get out to a broader audience. Teach people how to do this stuff the right way with metrics that matter and growth at scales, cutting edge technologies like we’re talking about here today with Meta Andromeda, no one else is talking about this, and no one else has tested as much money on this, up to about $40 million, $50 million.
00:41:24:13 – 00:41:44:14
Ralph
And John have to do the the accounting on that. And we’re testing it on our own accounts before we tested on tier 11 clients. And now we have figured out exactly how to get this really working to scale in 2026, which is the reason why we feel that matters. The best ad platform on the planet in 2026 and beyond.
00:41:44:16 – 00:41:59:04
Ralph
So of course, the rating and review, if you find this stuff helpful wherever you listen, podcast and until next show, see you.
