Episode 779: How We Made a Personal Injury Law Firm $55.2M with Oli Liboy

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Tier 11’s Oli Liboy joins me to explore the multi-channel strategy that earned a personal injury law firm $55.2M in revenue. We discuss how Google’s shift from a traffic machine to an intent machine has changed the game for high-stakes industries. Oli shares how Meta ads, combined with Google’s intent-driven platform, work together to generate both awareness and high-quality leads even in the most competitive markets.

If you’re a lawyer or marketer in this space, or just interested in the future of digital marketing, this episode is packed with valuable insights. We’ll break down strategies for scaling your paid ads without blowing your budget, optimizing your Google campaigns for intent, and creating brand awareness through Meta.

In this episode you’ll learn:

  • Balancing Google’s intent-driven traffic with Meta’s awareness-building
  • How to target high-value keywords on Google without overspending
  • Using Meta’s predictive targeting capabilities to drive campaign results
  • The importance of accurate conversion tracking and CRM setups
  • Building brand authority through content and SEO for long-term growth
  • How to apply Google local services ads (LSAs) for your business
  • Why true conversion metrics (not just leads or clicks) are crucial
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READ THE TRANSCRIPT:

How We Made a Personal Injury Law Firm $55.2M with Oli Liboy

00:00:00:00 – 00:00:11:21
Ralph
Google has transformed into an intent machine, not a traffic machine. You really need to know what you’re doing. You’re playing with fire. You’re playing with thousands and millions of dollars of spend here.

00:00:11:21 – 00:00:24:05
Oli
And Google will think, let’s quote this worth 600 bucks a click because it might transform into a case. I’m going to make you pay the intent instead of paying you the traffic.

00:00:24:07 – 00:00:28:12
Ralph
But what do you really mean by that?

00:00:28:14 – 00:00:56:20
Ralph
Hello and welcome to the Virtual Traffic Podcast. This is your host, Ralph Burns, founder and CEO of tier 11. Alongside the star of the last two episodes here on Perpetual Traffic, the star who wasn’t on the last two episodes. But we finally got him on part three here. On how he was able to. Well, we’re going to have to debate these numbers here just a bit, because you actually think it’s probably a little bit more than this.

00:00:56:22 – 00:01:21:12
Ralph
But we’ve got Ali Ali Boy from tier 11. He heads up our legal division at tier 11 and he is responsible. He and his team is responsible for the last two episodes. When we’ve been talking about this personal injury law firm making well over $55 million in the time in which we have worked with them all, they actually says it’s more says it’s more cases will debate that here today.

00:01:21:14 – 00:01:28:04
Ralph
But anyway, very excited to have you back on perpetual traffic. Ali Ali boy.

00:01:28:06 – 00:01:37:15
Oli
Hello, guys. Hello, Ralph. And, happy to be here and discuss this case. Resolved, done, amongst other things about this. I guess.

00:01:37:17 – 00:01:59:13
Ralph
So there’s a warning I would issue on this show here today. Don’t be put off by Ali’s understated and humble nature, because I think what this guy does in the personal injury space and I’ve been doing this, we were talking about this that we both used to do mass tort for years and years, especially when I was an affiliate marketer.

00:01:59:13 – 00:02:21:09
Ralph
Like what you do is super hard. And we mentioned it numerous times on parts one and two. Like the clicks in this space, what you pay for a click and the personal injury law space is off the charts. Crazy. And you really need to know what you’re doing. Like you’re playing with fire, you’re playing with thousands and millions of dollars of spend here.

00:02:21:09 – 00:02:40:12
Ralph
And so you’ve got to be really on your A-game. And thankfully, Ali, I mean, you’re the best person I have ever met that does this stuff. And really excited to have you as a part of tier 11 here. And obviously super excited to have you talk about, what you’ve learned in the last four years with this particular client as well as you’ve been doing this for way longer than that.

00:02:40:12 – 00:03:00:01
Ralph
We can even get into that. All the stuff that you learned from this case here and, and, what the listener can learn. So if you are not a personal injury lawyer or in the law space, there’s going to be a lot of learnings here for you today. And of course, if you are in the personal injury law space or you’re in the legal space, you’re going to learn a ton here today from Ali.

00:03:00:01 – 00:03:15:23
Ralph
And of course, if you need our help, you can always get it over at your local M forward slash apply. So enough about that. So let’s get right into it. So how long have you been doing this in the legal space? I don’t think I’ve ever I really even asked you this question because I know it’s a long time.

00:03:15:23 – 00:03:21:03
Ralph
It’s not a couple of years. It’s more than that. So tell us about like, how you even got into it.

00:03:21:03 – 00:03:42:04
Oli
Yeah. Started around 20, 2012 and started with my story on on the freelance website. I saw a request to find some info about some cases in New York, so why not? So I answered it and I did the research. People like the research. Ask me oh, okay. Do you do, micro marketing? Do you do when you’re buying?

00:03:42:06 – 00:04:04:14
Oli
And, I was back then, I was doing affiliate marketing, so I knew how to drive traffic, so I yeah, of course I can do anything you want. Even, as we were doing, native ads, we were doing Google ads. Maybe Facebook was starting, and, amongst all other kind of traffic source in your affiliate marketing, you know, your normally your numbers and your stuff.

00:04:04:14 – 00:04:24:02
Oli
So I did. Yes. And I started with a campaign in my store and they liked my work and, and usually in that business, when they like your work workday, there’s a word of mouth that people recommend. You and I started doing other cases and I started doing PII, it a bit more and I still do my store.

00:04:24:02 – 00:04:45:15
Oli
I never stopped I might I do also I do well, could come all kind of media. So a motor vehicle accident and that criminal cases also now yeah a lot of different practices. It’s it’s it’s a nice, area to work in and it’s very challenging. Yeah. But cost. Yeah. Cost per click, can go up to the roof like the, the 1000.

00:04:45:17 – 00:04:46:07
Oli
You better watch.

00:04:46:08 – 00:05:05:16
Ralph
Out. We actually have a YouTube video where we talk about you paid like $817 or $873. I think it was for one click. Yeah. And it actually turned into a sign case. And that’s how we could pay $873. So it’s like if you are spending that kind of money and you’re in this competitive space, you got to know what you’re doing.

00:05:05:16 – 00:05:38:14
Ralph
And yeah, it’s funny to me, it’s when I think about a lot of the folks that have been at zero 11 for quite some time and are still like top level marketers, a lot of them started in the affiliate space. I mean, that’s how I started. I don’t know if I’m necessarily one of those elites anymore. The point is this is that when you are in that market, like as an affiliate, especially in something like this, we were talking about like the mesh, you know, mass tort cases that we were both working on at that point in time.

00:05:38:14 – 00:06:01:21
Ralph
You get to know what you’re doing, but it’s a great way to learn this whole thing. So and for those of you who aren’t familiar with affiliate marketing, is basically you have a company that will pay you per lead or per a certain conversion, and you have to figure out how to pay for the traffic so that it’s less than whatever the commission is that you get for the lead or for the sale or whatever happens to me.

00:06:01:21 – 00:06:22:13
Ralph
And on many cases, those leads, they say, oh, they’re bad leads. So it looks like you made $1,000 that day, when in fact they’re like, yeah, you sent me a bunch of crap leads. You lose $2,000 a day. And that happened to me many, many, many times. It really isn’t what you kill kind of scenario. And you have to live it, breathe it, just do anything you possibly can to learn how to do it.

00:06:22:13 – 00:06:25:20
Ralph
And that’s how you got good at this stuff. From what it sounds like.

00:06:25:22 – 00:06:32:08
Oli
Yeah, it’s you have to remember that when you’re affiliate marketer, it’s your own money that you put at the table and you have to make money.

00:06:32:10 – 00:06:50:16
Ralph
I think one of the things that when you say, okay, well, that’s your own money. When we’re working with clients, we we feel it is our own money as well. And I think that’s that sense of ownership. Like, you really take this personally when things don’t go well. It’s not just because things don’t go well for the client.

00:06:50:16 – 00:07:11:10
Ralph
You take it personally because like this is very competitive, obviously, but like that you feel like that’s your own money when you’re spending it. And that’s how why we do this sort of in stepwise approach. You know, there’s a strategy that you started off with in 2022 and 2023, which we have talked about in the previous two episodes.

00:07:11:10 – 00:07:36:00
Ralph
And by the way, if you haven’t listened to parts one, in parts two, we’ll leave links in the show notes or just Google it, just find it on YouTube where I go through this whole presentation, which we’ll probably reference here a couple of times on today’s show. But your strategies from 2022 and 2023, when you first started with this firm until 2025 and into 26, even radically changed?

00:07:36:00 – 00:08:00:00
Ralph
I mean, it was largely a Google type of arrangement when we first started, but then it slowly became more multi-channel. And the beauty of this client is that they do actually have other avenues in which they advertise and have a good brand name, which certainly does help. But the strategy has changed over time, so maybe you can just kind of take me through that a bit.

00:08:00:00 – 00:08:14:07
Ralph
And when you started, as opposed to, how things sort of continued through 2025, what was your overall thought on how all the channels work together? Switching from maybe Google mainly to more of a multi-channel approach?

00:08:14:09 – 00:08:52:04
Oli
When we started this, it was mostly focus on Google Ads, still Google search, and we lived the evolution from 22 to 25. The evolution between all the change into the market. The problem was the attribution was Google fits the problem coming from. You can’t really attribute that same case to the traffic. These are the changes, I think mostly in 2022 you could buy mostly traffic, but the cost per click increase, increased increase and Google changed also the algorithm and moved from okay, you are not buying 3D traffic, you are more buying an intent.

00:08:52:04 – 00:09:12:00
Oli
So we going to make you pay the intent instead of paying you the traffic. If we continued being stubborn and paying the traffic. Yeah you can you can have a campaign. Let’s be technical on the exact traffic and oh, my average traffic, cost per click is like 801,000. Some law firm can afford this, some law firm can’t.

00:09:12:05 – 00:09:51:18
Oli
When you have a budget from 30 to 100 K, it started to be difficult to pay 800 bucks a click. And around 2425 we started to see that, oh, maybe meta. Instead of being a separated entity, started to work along with your Google campaign. So we started to try to work with the two traffic source at the same time, to try to get better result and focus more on separated metric like Amir instead of oh, Google is making that money, we are spending that money is like that, and Facebook is doing that money and making that money is like that.

00:09:51:18 – 00:09:58:03
Oli
We want to separate it. No, we want to see what we are spending and our cost per cases.

00:09:58:05 – 00:10:23:21
Ralph
Yeah, yeah. So one of the things that when we were talking about this before, the first two shows, like I said, we’ll leave those links in the show notes over a perpetual traffic kgw.com is that Google has transformed into an intent machine and but not a traffic machine. So the traffic really comes from meta, and the intent goes to Google to a certain degree.

00:10:23:21 – 00:10:46:20
Ralph
I guess there’s lots of different ways to slice that, but like, how do you perceive it and how does it really change when you mean like Google is intent or people say, well, I do Google ads, that creates traffic for me. It creates demand. It creates a potential new customers, whatever it is. Car detailing near me, for example, you know, I do an ad for that.

00:10:46:20 – 00:10:54:05
Ralph
I buy that keyword, I get business from it. But so what do you really mean by that? Because that’s a that’s a big shift over the course of the last 3 or 4 years.

00:10:54:10 – 00:11:24:16
Oli
With the, the multiple thousand point and data that Google had. No. When when somebody come and search on Google, usually it doesn’t depend really anymore on the exact keywords they’re going to type. They know was that keywords that, oh, that person was all the background and all that. The way they did it might convert into a case or it might not convert it to a case and it just a top of the funnel person, but it might convert to the case.

00:11:24:18 – 00:11:59:22
Oli
And then you have the the pool of all the people that are bidding on that keywords. It will offer you that at such a price, Google will think it’s quote this worth 600 bucks a click, because it might transform into a case for them. Right? That’s how the intent work in the past. If you want to keep being stubborn and then you have a campaign, it’s only go on manual CPC to get that case, you would have to bid the 600 without having the knowledge from Google thinking about the intent it would it.

00:12:00:02 – 00:12:15:18
Oli
Even if the intent is not there, that keyword at that period, it will make you pay 600 and maybe it won’t convert. That’s why you have to rely on more on the CPA or all the algorithm set up instead of okay, I buy that keyword for that price. It’s a waste of money.

00:12:15:20 – 00:12:41:08
Ralph
It is a waste of money. And I think that there was a conversation that was had that. And you and I have talked about this many times, is that you’re really focusing in on motor vehicle accidents. You’re car accidents specifically. But you because your campaigns are set up for that intent, you might also get motorcycle accidents. You might also get truck accidents.

00:12:41:08 – 00:13:04:20
Ralph
But truck accidents is a much more expensive keyword. So you have to balance all of that in order to be able to feed the algorithm the right type of data and we talked about this with offline conversions, 90 day conversion window, making sure that signed cases is your end point here, not just calls and clicks or leads, because a lot of that doesn’t really even matter.

00:13:04:22 – 00:13:27:00
Ralph
Like you have to be able to train the algorithm to be able to find those people using all the data points that Google has. But you also need to create an awareness from a brand standpoint to for the individual keywords, for the brand name of the law client. In this case it was Mike Morse law. But or so like, how do you balance all that?

00:13:27:00 – 00:13:48:22
Ralph
I guess that’s sort of that middle ground between like, we’re meta and where Google kind of fit together. And I think this is an interesting case because you see it being the very, very first part of it. And part one I talk about like how you are so Google focused, but then that changed over time. So how did you make that switch and what’s sort of the strategy behind that?

00:13:49:00 – 00:14:08:13
Oli
The awareness is getting more and more important here. You have a big law firm that already has a name. So they use billboards, they use radio. They are on TV. They do a big advertising campaign. It’s it’s easier their build their name. But they need meta here to push it even better on social media. And drive to search.

00:14:08:18 – 00:14:32:18
Oli
But let’s say they have something. You have all their firm that they don’t have that presence, that billboard, etc. so they have to think about their awareness, their brand. Whereas my brand and getting seriously noticed by Google or not, or by I or we talk later, they have to do their campaign and having their order. So you have YouTube, but you have meta aside.

00:14:32:18 – 00:14:56:11
Oli
Meta is getting more and more important and working better and better was a Google Ads campaign. You have meta top of the funnel and then people, for example, on Facebook, people notice your brand when they need you. They type your brand on Google, they do a Google search. There’s a branded campaign. They click your name and maybe convert into a case.

00:14:56:13 – 00:15:18:09
Oli
What is dangerous if you don’t use a branded campaign? They see you on Facebook, you do a lot of Facebook and you don’t do much on Google. They search you and what they see is three other law firms that have heard about stuff. I’m not going to search for for your organic unless they really know you, but it’s a the second click or third click, they’re going to click on another law firm.

00:15:18:09 – 00:15:20:00
Oli
And you you’re going to lose the case.

00:15:20:02 – 00:15:42:23
Ralph
Right. So it almost seems that’s maybe too simplistic of an answer to my question is, hey, create the awareness for the people that are potentially in market for having just suffered a motor vehicle accident, or maybe had a motor vehicle accident, maybe you’re now on the couch and now the bills are starting to sort of pile up and they’re thinking, all right, maybe I really got I’m getting screwed by my insurance company.

00:15:43:01 – 00:16:11:01
Ralph
There’s sort of almost two different avatars there. There’s the person that just had the accident, and then the other person that maybe they’re dealing with the after effects of the financial implications of the family issues, or maybe the injury, like they’re maybe they’re still in pain, like there’s so many different aspects to this. So originally in your campaigns, you’re like, all right, I’m going to get the people who haven’t been in an accident today over on meta, and I’m going to get the people who have been an accident today or within the last day or so on Google.

00:16:11:03 – 00:16:25:09
Ralph
But those two worlds kind of merged together as these campaigns evolved. It’s almost like you created the awareness for the brand on meta to a certain degree, and then captured that intent on Google. Or am I just simplifying?

00:16:25:12 – 00:16:36:04
Oli
There is one important fact, and you write about this on meta. It’s usually people they didn’t think about, oh, maybe I should call the lawyer for that accident that I had last year. I didn’t get enough money or whatsoever.

00:16:36:08 – 00:16:37:13
Ralph
Or.

00:16:37:15 – 00:16:54:01
Oli
They see your brand, they noticed your brand, and when they have an accident, they know your brand and they’re going to call. But you I’ve also those people where they don’t know your brand and they just got an accident. So they take their phone, they I bet, oh, I injured in a car accident or a car accident. Lawyer near me or car accident lawyer.

00:16:54:01 – 00:17:14:06
Oli
Now it’s the search campaign. It’s a what we call a non-branded campaign. That’s the most important thing here. You want to rank in the first three because people either might decide directly to and you are lucky you were the first one. And then they like your intake and you wait. Then close them. But they might be a little bit of shopping, so they might click on three different ones.

00:17:14:06 – 00:17:41:17
Oli
So I’m going to much further because it’s a super process. Yeah it’s the old process. But those cases usually are bigger because they might be sorry for that. But injured and they are in the moment. So this is the kind of cases you absolutely want. Maybe on the Facebook site when they check their cases after a year, it might have been a smaller case.

00:17:41:19 – 00:18:16:05
Ralph
Yeah. A personal injury lawyer once said to me, the longer a victim waits, the worse my chances are of getting them a settlement. So I was always like, well, this is I think this is 3 or 4 years ago when he said that to me. And I always sort of stuck with me. And I’ve talked we obviously we talk with a lot of law firms, but that stuck with me because there was like the meta or the Facebook avatars, the person that didn’t just experience the accident, however, you’re trying to merge those two worlds sort of together.

00:18:16:07 – 00:18:45:04
Ralph
So even though they may have experienced an accident and didn’t call a P lawyer within the first month or two, some law firms might say, well, that’s not as good of a case because they’ve already kind of blown it. They need to call us immediately, and the value is less. How do you balance that all out? Because at the end of the day, it’s about getting signed cases and then a successful sign case that then turns into a settlement that then you know, that 30% commission then goes to the Pi law firm.

00:18:45:04 – 00:18:46:19
Ralph
So how do you sort of balance those things?

00:18:46:22 – 00:19:09:22
Oli
That’s why there was a kind of an average. So you pay for a traffic on Facebook and Google or on Billboard and everywhere, and then you had smaller cases and then you have bigger cases. And if you’re lucky, you have $1 million cases, and then it helps you to improve the cost of maybe that you had a cases that cost you 6000, and then it gives you back like 12,000.

00:19:09:22 – 00:19:32:09
Oli
And with the cost of everything and cost of your employee, it might not be good. But aside, you have a 3 million cases or two, 20 million cases on this year. And it that you’ll make it profitable. And yeah, mostly is those cases that are coming from the non-branded side of things because they’re in the action and it’s an accident that just arrive.

00:19:32:09 – 00:19:44:23
Oli
Or again, we talk about the brand. They just had an accident and severe injury and they remember the brand. Oh, that’s the brand I want to work with because I saw them on Facebook or on YouTube or even on TikTok.

00:19:45:01 – 00:20:09:19
Ralph
Yeah, absolutely. And and one of the campaigns that we, we showed in the I think it was part two was the increase in Facebook now meta ad spend from like $7,000 a month to 70,000 plus per month, and you’re really going after it in a very small geographic area, which is like a Detroit metro area, Michigan like that market.

00:20:09:21 – 00:20:34:09
Ralph
You’re penetrating a lot of folks in that market. But with Andromeda, I guess this is another question which we sort of left out of the presentation is with Andromeda now was running meta ads can and is Andromeda so smart it can predict who might be in a car accident at some point in time and then show ads to that person.

00:20:34:09 – 00:20:49:02
Ralph
Is it has it become sort of that way, the way Google was and still is to this day to a certain degree. Like what? How good is meta in predicting those types of of actions?

00:20:49:04 – 00:20:54:11
Oli
We’d be really, really good of of the pack. Yeah. Yeah. They really know exactly what’s happening.

00:20:54:11 – 00:20:55:23
Ralph
It’s like saying.

00:20:56:00 – 00:21:16:02
Oli
Yeah, remember, they have data all over the place that are data from Instagram. They’re data from Facebook. Like there was WhatsApp. There’s like everywhere there. So they know everything. What’s happening. Yeah. So they probably can predict or predict the moment after, and already push it there.

00:21:16:03 – 00:21:16:20
Ralph
Yeah.

00:21:16:22 – 00:21:30:16
Oli
Andromeda’s case, like you and meta in general is of the pack for learning with Google. I you we don’t compare to the two entities. They have so much data on, on us and on everybody that they can predict a lot of things.

00:21:30:18 – 00:21:50:12
Ralph
So one of the examples I think I used in part one is that Google has so much data on you, and we intercepted this, internal memo chasm, my old podcast co-host, intercepted it. And then, you know, it was redacted. But basically Google said, hey, we have 72 million data points, demographic and psychographics, actors on every human on the planet.

00:21:50:12 – 00:22:12:19
Ralph
This was three years ago, 72 million. So now you got to figure it’s probably double that. So they know, like when you’re on your phone, they know when you’re they know where you’re going. They know that you just went to a bar. And then they know that you’re once you went to that bar, you stayed there for an hour or two, and then you’re driving now and you’re using an app on your phone.

00:22:12:19 – 00:22:38:16
Ralph
It’s almost like that unto itself is so creepy. But if you’re not a digital marketer, it’s creepy. If you’re a digital marketer and you’re trying to assist, you know, getting people these types of cases like that is information that’s incredibly vital. And what you’re saying is meta has that same level of understanding to a certain degree or to a more or to a more degree, or it just doesn’t matter because they both work so well together.

00:22:38:18 – 00:23:02:19
Oli
Google might have more, but they work well together. So it’s like a part two response. It makes such a mothership. You would tell when you are making them work together. Was the right creative? Of course, or the better side. It’s like you really have the power if you have the right set up. Also in Google Ads, and you don’t flush your money by going into a wrong setup.

00:23:02:23 – 00:23:07:05
Oli
I’m not against money or CPC again, it’s just. Yeah, trust trust.

00:23:07:05 – 00:23:07:17
Ralph
More.

00:23:07:17 – 00:23:21:05
Oli
The algorithm because we are of a veteran of this. It makes it harder. But all those years I learned how to to trust more of the algorithm and make it work for the campaign and work along with it, either in meta and on Facebook.

00:23:21:10 – 00:23:52:19
Ralph
So let’s let’s pick a scenario here with Mike Moore’s Law. You started relative like they were spending $1 million a year. We’ve got a screenshot of that which actually shows how much they were spending and didn’t really have their tracking set up. Yeah, accurately. At that point in time. We helped, obviously, with the tracking. The tracking is such a huge part to this because otherwise you can’t feed the algorithm the right data and you want to send it the right data, which is the signed case event, which is the most important event.

00:23:52:22 – 00:24:12:22
Ralph
But if you were to start now with a personal injury or any law firm and you’re like, all right, well, you’ve got these two platforms, we need to use them together. How would you figure out that mix? Let’s say, you know, it’s a it’s a larger it’s not a huge market. It’s not like, you know, New York or LA or Atlanta.

00:24:12:23 – 00:24:29:22
Ralph
Maybe it’s like, I don’t know, Birmingham, Alabama. Let’s just use that as some example. Or Columbus, Ohio, for example. And how would you start the mix? Would you start it mostly on Google and then add meta in, or would you start both together, like what would be your initial approach?

00:24:29:22 – 00:24:49:09
Oli
The first approach was depending on the spending and what they were to spend on, on their campaign and how long they want to spend it. It always depends. Yeah. On the states, on the city, what, the average CPC over there. Ideally, I would like to start with both. If the cost is too heavy on the Google side, then work more on the meta side.

00:24:49:09 – 00:25:08:23
Oli
In the beginning, spend more there like 7030 and see how it goes. When you get started to have some some cases, at least you have the brand data side. So I would work, make them work together and then scale at a point, either balance or have more into the Google side. But again, it needs to be fed the right data.

00:25:09:01 – 00:25:34:19
Oli
So one of the first thing before doing those campaign, probably check the tracking, all those tools like, core tracking metrics or core rail for the call tracking. And then there are the CRM. It set up everything, all together. Make sure it’s not messy, work it up, set it up to be able to send back not only the same case, but maybe some in between.

00:25:34:19 – 00:25:56:11
Oli
Conversion, like, qualified leads would be a good step. And then go feed the campaign and, work on it and tailor it the little bit. You can’t expect to have a result after a week. Usually it can be up to three months, maybe more. It depends. Also, though, it depends again on where you are. Location is statewide.

00:25:56:11 – 00:26:00:13
Oli
Is steady. Is it, nationwide etc., etc..

00:26:00:15 – 00:26:31:01
Ralph
So in most cases it’s it’s really it is a regionalized focus at least what we’ve seen. I mean obviously there are some some p law and some law firms that do go nationwide. I mean, we can think of a lot of them that we probably see in an ads, you know, insides of busses and so forth everywhere. The point is this is that so you’re looking really at the local like the local market and the cost per click on the Google side will indicate a certain amount of decision making.

00:26:31:01 – 00:26:47:16
Ralph
As far as what portion of your overall spend will go on Google, but then you try to kind of balance the. So there really isn’t what I’m getting from you, is it really it it’s the old answer to the question for every digital marketer, like what would you do in this scenario? Well, it.

00:26:47:16 – 00:26:50:17
Oli
Depends, it depends.

00:26:50:19 – 00:27:09:10
Ralph
Yeah. But you have to be able to spend in order to start to gather that data so that you can make those decisions. And then you’re really looking at that data within the first couple of weeks, especially after the tracking is set up. First and foremost, it’s the first thing that we did in the case study. And okay, we’re not going to get into all that sort of stuff of how we did all that.

00:27:09:10 – 00:27:33:19
Ralph
You can go back to part one links in the show notes over at Metro traffic.com. Of course, but then you just sort of gauge it and you see, all right, well, my high value keywords, my car accident lawyer Birmingham maybe I’m starting to get some cases, their last click in Google and then you shift maybe some more budget over to meta like tell me about that decision making process.

00:27:33:19 – 00:27:41:12
Ralph
Because this is a bit of a black box, because it is every single case or every single law firm or firm is different.

00:27:41:14 – 00:28:07:09
Oli
Again, it depends on on the the right kind of traffic I’m getting and I’m getting some good traffic on some keywords are some keywords going getting me some search term that are too vague and are not converging enough. There’s still a lot of work there, especially if you use the less expensive road keywords where you have in the beginning of a campaign, you have thought of traffic going there.

00:28:07:11 – 00:28:31:06
Oli
And you have to negate, negate, negate again, it’s not negate everything because you when you negate too much, you cut the legs of the algo. Also, some keywords you think in the past would negate the same was the intent machine would lead to a scam case. So you don’t want to be too negative. It’s part of the game too.

00:28:31:06 – 00:28:53:15
Oli
If you see some good result on the Google Ads side, and even on the on the non-branded and in the branded it doesn’t mean that your campaign, it’s not working. So you have to find the right balance in between those two traffic sources and search into the source of truth, which is your CRM? The lot CRM. CRM is one of the most important thing here.

00:28:53:18 – 00:29:02:08
Oli
So good traffic, but also good CRM. And then CRM. We’ll talk after that. After click and the intake, of course.

00:29:02:10 – 00:29:31:05
Ralph
Yeah, I do want to get to because that was a big part of, part two in our, in our case study series here as well. I guess in an ideal world, if you could just advertise brand for the individual law firm on meta and just brand, brand, brand and then all your Google, all, you’re just scooping up is just branded name of law firm on the Google side.

00:29:31:05 – 00:29:54:05
Ralph
And then just rank outrank everybody else that’s in that competitive space for that branded search term like Mike Moore’s law in this particular case, or Mike Moore, Morris personal injury lawyer or whatever it is like, that would be a great scenario because then you can really optimize to get that cost per click for the brand name down as much as possible, because there’s intent that goes along with it.

00:29:54:05 – 00:30:10:12
Ralph
But then there’s always Google trying to get more money out of you. So maybe that isn’t the best scenario, but that in my mind, is like, hey, create brand over here on meta and create, you know, the actual last click or attribution over on Google. It’s just not that simple. But that would be a great scenario. Correct me if I’m.

00:30:10:12 – 00:30:35:16
Oli
Wrong, I think it would be a good scenario to test when you’re starting and you know, oh, I call to for going for an on brand campaign. So I need one campaign and I need people to notice me. If you want people to notice you, you’ll go for meta. Remember, if you if you go for meta and you don’t go for Google, it might counteract your traffic because people would search your name and find other law firm again.

00:30:35:21 – 00:31:05:09
Oli
And you’re losing the traffic there. You’re paying for traffic that you are losing on Google. And you’re losing some cases to remember. Also some vendors, they obviously bid on the name. They don’t really care. Other law firm usually sometimes they bid on names. It depends on the relationship. But vendors it’s not really a problem. There’s no real law I think, in any of the states that block you from bidding on a competitor name.

00:31:05:15 – 00:31:20:05
Oli
So and the vendors obviously get some cases from those if they take the website, like car accident lawyer Alabama, people might think, oh, maybe it’s those guys. Then they click and then they convert over there and then they resell the case for.

00:31:20:09 – 00:31:43:03
Ralph
Exactly. So I think a lot of law firms and who when I first started tier 11, believe it or not, our largest client was a personal injury law firm. And it was. So we did obviously mass tort law prior to that point in time. And at 13 offices in and around, like the New England area, still really a very prosperous law firm.

00:31:43:05 – 00:32:01:04
Ralph
But we did all for organic, the three pack, I want to say it’s the three pack, but it’s the, you know, the top three Google ranking for Google at that point in time was Google Places. And our whole thing was get to the top of the Google places in that ranking, because that’s where you’re going to get the most high intent cases.

00:32:01:04 – 00:32:31:04
Ralph
If you can rank for personal injury lawyer. Providence, Rhode Island, for example, which was one of our keywords phrases that we ranked number one for for like two years, which was really hard to do, but, but but now it’s you’re saying SEO is important. So that’s search engine optimization and local search optimization, but you’re saying still you’ve got to have the paid ad in there as well, which is and then we haven’t even talked about the AI side.

00:32:31:04 – 00:32:40:08
Ralph
But no matter what you do, you’re going to have to you’re going to have to defend that turf with a paid ad for your brand name. If you’re creating the awareness over on meta, it’s simple.

00:32:40:08 – 00:33:03:03
Oli
It’s today you take your phone and you type in, go to the lawyer near me, and you’re going to have the all those, local search ads on top. Then you have, the Google my business. So likes Google places. And inside of that you have the paid ads. So the sponsored result into the the map. And then under it you have the AI results.

00:33:03:05 – 00:33:23:16
Oli
The AI result might have as at a point and underneath you have those search, sponsored results. And then if you’re lucky or you are there are three seats there like you are in the top three maybe for organic in the past you had then now you will see in the bottom, oh, there are three people. And then against more so a result.

00:33:23:16 – 00:33:48:15
Oli
And then you go, you go to next pages. So the organic result is starting to go down and everybody’s noticing their traffic. It’s coming down. And unless you work on your branding and you might appear into the AI, but it’s it’s another topic of of discussion. But as you can see from, from your phone or it’s worse on your phone that on your desktop.

00:33:48:15 – 00:33:54:22
Oli
But on desktop you it’s obvious. Also the organic is like going down, down down down down. Yeah.

00:33:55:00 – 00:34:18:09
Ralph
Yeah. Because Google is making any money on that. Yeah. Another question that we didn’t really even talk about is the RSA ads. And like a lot of we get a lot of questions on that when we talk to personal injury law clients. And you always say those ads don’t really yield the best leads. What why why is that?

00:34:18:09 – 00:34:28:18
Ralph
What what’s your theory on those? And if you’re not familiar with those, maybe you can explain it a little bit more. But that seems to be something that’s comes up over and over again. A lot of our discussions.

00:34:28:19 – 00:34:49:14
Oli
Yeah, it’s the look for local search, as you can see from on top of the results, if you type personal or injury lawyer near me or plumber near me, you would see Google guaranteed. On top those local search outs, you can find a number and you click the number and it goes to kind of it’s kind of a black box from Google.

00:34:49:14 – 00:35:11:11
Oli
So you can you can optimize only for okay, I want those practices and I want that territory. And I want to call between that and that in the past. So you receive the call directly or you go through call tracking metrics and you can review the call. But in the past you could say, oh, that call is not what I want.

00:35:11:11 – 00:35:30:20
Oli
It’s not the kind of lead I want. Now. It’s even, different for now. You can’t even do a review for you. And would they think what could what could and what not? Good. It depends on the practices. Sometimes you can have some cases from there that remember, you don’t control anything you give. Okay. I’m, I’m willing to spend for a week for cases.

00:35:30:20 – 00:35:46:23
Oli
And then it gives you those calls that are out there on Google. You can treat it or you can pay and you can’t really when you want to scale it, you can’t really scale and you don’t know how many law firms are doing it. I say, so if all the law firms are doing it, I say, oh, is it going the best?

00:35:46:23 – 00:36:05:04
Oli
But it’s part of the mix. And you can do those like say, if you manage to find, okay, those LSA are getting me cases under 3000 or 2000. Do some they say but do some Google and some meta aside deliver everything to a black box?

00:36:05:06 – 00:36:25:00
Ralph
Exactly. Just so we understand what we’re talking about here is like there’s the search results above the actual sponsored result. Well, it’s it’s not really search, but it is sponsored results above the sponsored results. So to your point, it’s like, you know, in order to get to the organic I’m looking at it right now. I just did car accident lawyer near me.

00:36:25:00 – 00:36:42:23
Ralph
And I have to scroll one to see, like I’m going down 4 or 5 scrolls before I actually get to a true organic listing. You know, in my market. And by the way, when my old client is actually is number two in Google businesses. So I guess, you know, we must have done something right. I see one and two.

00:36:43:00 – 00:36:49:06
Ralph
Wow. But impressed. Anyway, I’ll have to do that in the incognito window just to make sure I’m not just.

00:36:49:08 – 00:36:50:00
Oli
Sent up to my.

00:36:50:05 – 00:37:14:21
Ralph
Full. Yeah, actually is that he is actually number one on me and well, incognito. Anyway, the point is this is like there’s a lot of organic searches, but so you do need to create that brand awareness for the name, because in an ideal scenario, it’s like if you have enough awareness, keep in mind Google and Meta know who’s going to get in a car accident.

00:37:14:23 – 00:37:38:21
Ralph
It’s crazy to think about that, but it is true. That’s how much these things like that’s the reason why meta is spending $72 billion this year on AI is to make their algorithm even smarter than it already is. And, you know, 100 million, 110 million, I believe, in 2027. It’s crazy amount of money. So it’s like, how much do they really know about you?

00:37:38:22 – 00:37:48:15
Ralph
They know about you. They know about everybody who you’re trying to target. So don’t discount meta, because meta knows just as much as Google does, maybe even more at this point.

00:37:48:17 – 00:38:11:12
Oli
Meta know no more at Google, no more. And we forget an item which is an on the real estate of that page is the I at the I know also the eight, but what they call now a year or so. Yeah this like I was testing this this morning and you for people are doing that more and more either in ChatGPT or in Google.

00:38:11:13 – 00:38:31:14
Oli
But they’re going to type. They need a lawyer. What are the, the top three criminal lawyer or top three, personal injury lawyer near me? You’re going to have all those LSA, you have the Google my business, but I is going to give you for now or kind of organically, you’re going to give you the three names in a description.

00:38:31:16 – 00:38:53:12
Oli
Those three lawyers or so. Remember that organic and brand. It’s even more important now because you want to be in that top three when people they believe more to AI than maybe the sponsor results, they they going to check it. Oh those top three. Oh I know that lawyer because I heard and I saw on meta they were doing some video or YouTube.

00:38:53:12 – 00:39:09:04
Oli
They were doing some some video was value as an example. So you might want to work with it. So don’t forget the work on the on the brand is even more important in the AI world than it was before.

00:39:09:06 – 00:39:40:14
Ralph
And how do you account for that? Do you? I mean, obviously any click is a good click if they’re going in and recognizing it’s a branded search. But I mean, how do you factor in a query like who’s the best car accident lawyer in Michigan? That kind of thing, which would probably promote like an aiteo type of response with Gemini answering that, like, how do you factor that into the whole sort of landscape of, of paid advertising here?

00:39:40:14 – 00:39:46:20
Ralph
Or is it just that’s something that you can’t control or what would be your advice on that.

00:39:46:22 – 00:40:16:19
Oli
When you work on, on that branding awareness, you make that brand become an authority and I need authority to show you into their result. So you have the fact that you work on your paid ads, on your YouTube, on your meta understanding awareness. But not only the beta is not the only one. You have also to think about your new SEO strategy to target that.

00:40:16:19 – 00:40:45:23
Oli
So you make more article you make try to get reference in multiple, media because you want to be an authority using organic also. So social media posts normal organic one article, blog posts, listicle make your brand notice. If you are not into those results, it’s time to focus on that. And in the next few months or few years is going to be way, way, way more important.

00:40:45:23 – 00:40:46:12
Oli
But it is.

00:40:46:17 – 00:41:16:19
Ralph
Yeah, SEO best practices are still as important today as they always were. Authoritative content that’s helpful, useful, and, expansive. They no longer pieces of content, more authority. Obviously, advertising plays into that to a certain degree. You got to figure that Google factors and who’s running ads versus who isn’t. But at the end of the day, they’re trying to get your money for that last click.

00:41:16:19 – 00:41:39:20
Ralph
So you’ve got to sort of balance all this out. So getting back to my original question, you’re in the law space and you’re trying to establish more of a digital presence. Would it be meta first at this point for you, or would it be sort of a 9010 split or 5050? Like what? What’s your sense? I mean, at the very least, get your brand.

00:41:39:22 – 00:41:50:17
Ralph
Make sure no other firm is capturing your brand name on Google. Search is my guess, but I’m maybe leading the witness here. Like, how would you kind of start that off?

00:41:50:18 – 00:42:22:08
Oli
At meta first, then for for few on the awareness and Brenda a branded campaign a site in Google. But yeah. Meta. First and a solid strategy aside for organic also but meta first. And then you scale your your Google ads or the way your government. But if you are not not this you want to become an authority or you want for traffic in general in the beginning, and you want to find your seat into that location region whatsoever, make that brand known as an authority though.

00:42:22:08 – 00:42:45:19
Oli
Push it there. You can’t use also YouTube, it’s kind of harder to attribute, but you can use it. Also, there are some other law firms that work on their organic by doing video on YouTube, which can help also. And then you could help with a little bit of paid ads aside, remember that giving value is the way to go so it people notice you like this.

00:42:45:19 – 00:42:49:17
Oli
It might be a good way to convert after this.

00:42:49:19 – 00:43:12:19
Ralph
That’s super interesting because you probably would have answered that question four years ago. Completely different is my guess. Yeah. You know, I mean, that’s how much this stuff has changed. That’s how much Andromeda has really changed the law space, you know, and you know, you’re still spending on some of those high intent keywords like hundreds of dollars a click, like what’s just just curious.

00:43:12:19 – 00:43:26:04
Ralph
In the last six months or so, what’s the what’s the most you’ve paid for a click in this space? Because I know we obviously we do a fair amount on the yeah, I love space and you’ve been doing it for quite some time, but like how expensive is.

00:43:26:06 – 00:43:49:23
Oli
In the thousand. In the thousand about like yeah but what do we had that that part where we paid 800 for case. It’s sometimes you get a 1000 click and you don’t get the case. So it’s or it’s dependent on the algo. What thing that it’s going to be a case. But it might be somebody who’s shopping, go to another law firm after it.

00:43:50:01 – 00:44:17:09
Oli
Or again we come under after click and then we go to the intake. And maybe the intake doesn’t answer because it’s during the night or the on the phone. They’re like, they’re, they’re voice on board and you don’t feel, cherished or reassured when you call. So you might not convert it. You’re never going to convert 100% of the call that are going.

00:44:17:09 – 00:44:38:14
Oli
That’s like three important to try to convert that price as much as possible. As 40, 50% of those calls. But if you don’t, you lost that 1000 click and you go to another law firm. And the only one would that if it I guess is Google because it’s get another 1000 clicks.

00:44:38:16 – 00:44:58:22
Ralph
They got their $1,000. Well we could do a whole other show. Just unlike the after the click experience. And maybe we have to have you come back and even talk about that, because that’s a whole thing unto itself. Because what we’ve really talked about here is everything just pre click. But so much of the success of this is your follow up, the speed to lead.

00:44:59:00 – 00:45:18:10
Ralph
It’s your ability to be able to have, you know, folks on board within your organization who are answering the phone, you know, virtually 24 over seven. I mean, case, you know, in the cases of a car accident law, these things are happening at two in the morning. You know, they’re not not in necessarily a 9 to 5 kind of occupation here.

00:45:18:10 – 00:45:41:22
Ralph
So your case managers have to be really on. You’ve certainly experienced this technical issues that you have between the CRMs in that communicating back with the ad platform, all of that sort of stuff. Maybe we hit on that on a separate episode, which is a huge part of the success here. And thankfully with this law firm, we are all the work through a lot of those technical issues.

00:45:41:22 – 00:46:04:07
Ralph
To start off with, start from sort of a clean slate was really good data, but there were like there was a CRM transition in the middle of this thing, which did upset the apple cart to a certain degree. And you got things back on, on board. So none of this is simple by any stretch. Now that it’s smooth sailing and you’ve dealt a lot of crap when it comes to this kind of stuff, and I would love to talk about that at a later date.

00:46:04:09 – 00:46:32:07
Ralph
Okay, so the debate was in part one, and two is that I said you and the team at year 11 got this client over 3000 signed cases at about $60,000 per settlement. This is an average in Michigan. You said anywhere between like 30 and 90 K. It depends on obviously, like the volume and a lot of other factors, which would then bring in about 184 million in settlement amounts for those victims.

00:46:32:07 – 00:46:43:16
Ralph
And then that would in turn well over 50, $55 million in revenue. Is that accurate or is it is it more or is it less? Because those are pretty big numbers.

00:46:43:18 – 00:47:08:18
Oli
It depends. Those those are those are average. Just like usually minimum I guess would be 20. But the average you can find, it’s like between 30 to 60. And you always have like we discussed before, you have a ten K one and then there you have a 3,000,001. So it should average at a point that’s like and when when we talk about 3000 cases, it might be also more because you lose on the attribution.

00:47:08:20 – 00:47:31:23
Oli
But I think I like that number because you have also you mentioned that with the branded, you can attract people coming from the billboard or people coming from, radio or TV, there. But you lose some because they saw your YouTube and instead of clicking on the number, they take their phone and they, they dialed the number.

00:47:32:03 – 00:47:37:04
Oli
So it’s that average that, that that average. It’s it’s going in the, in the ballpark.

00:47:37:04 – 00:48:02:01
Ralph
I would say the point is, is like this was if you look at the ad spend and you take a conservative estimate, that’s a ten year to ten media efficiency ratio, you know, which is income for a revenue for the client themselves, not to mention the thousands of people who you’ve impacted positively. Yeah. Like some of the some of the case studies that they have on their site are just unbelievable.

00:48:02:01 – 00:48:28:23
Ralph
Like total tear jerkers people were really like just were in a horrible, horrible state, you know, both from a health standpoint, a financial standpoint, like transformed their lives in a bad way. And then this firm was able to sort of come in and assist those individuals. And these are very high value types of types of clients that we love to work with here, because they really do do a good job and are valuable.

00:48:29:01 – 00:48:29:19
Oli
At helping you.

00:48:29:21 – 00:48:52:20
Ralph
Helping people. Yeah, at the end of the day and you know, that’s their vision is to help people, not just make money, but, you know, get people the money that they deserve and help and assist them in the process through what can be really, really challenging times. So I credit you so much with all the work that you’ve done with these guys and all the law firms that we work with here inside to your 11, absolutely amazing work.

00:48:52:21 – 00:49:15:00
Ralph
Like I said, I’d love to get you back on to talk about sort of the after the click stuff. We could we could go down a whole other, you know, of analysis of because it’s 50, 60, 70% of the effectiveness of the advertising on the front end. So, all the Playboy so glad you came back. It’s been way too long since you’ve been on perpetual traffic.

00:49:15:02 – 00:49:18:18
Ralph
Where can people find you? I guess it’s tier 11.com/apply.

00:49:18:20 – 00:49:21:17
Oli
Exactly.

00:49:21:19 – 00:49:37:15
Ralph
Yeah. See? There you go. Plug. Plug for a tier 11. Well, you know, like, this is the kind of stuff that gets us really excited here because this is a four year case study. If you haven’t listened to the first, part and the second part, we go into a lot of the detail here. Ali obviously is the brains behind all of this.

00:49:37:17 – 00:49:59:00
Ralph
So, we’d love to hear your comments and, rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts would be very much appreciated. Teach people how to do this stuff. The right way through metrics that matter and growth that scales. And you have certainly done both of those things for Mike Moore’s law here. So appreciate you coming on perpetual traffic.

00:49:59:02 – 00:50:00:12
Oli
Thank you was great.

00:50:00:14 – 00:50:20:15
Ralph
Yeah I’m like all right everyone. So leave links in the show notes for everything that we mentioned here today over perpetual traffic.com. Make sure to check us out over on our YouTube channel as well. Perpetual traffic.com/youtube. So on behalf of the amazing Ollie Lee boy, until next show. See ya.

00:50:20:17 – 00:50:21:05
Oli
See you.

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